0 360 engine to mount torque setting

[Gary]

I am finally ready to mate my Penn Yan overhauled Lycoming engine to my 170b! Anyone know what I should torque the bolts to the Lord mounts? (Man are those mounts expensive at $180 a piece!). Any advice on break in? Penn says to prime the engine until I see oil pressure before the first start. How does one do that? Also, it says to run it at max power for 10 hrs. I'm not sure how to lean to that setting. I have an EDM 700 with EGT, CHT, and fuel flow. Thanks, Gary

[marathonrunner]

It should be in the STC installation instructions depending on which STC you have

[GAHorn]

Do not lean the first few hours. Run it at low altitude, high power settings until the CHTs drop significantly. (Likely about 3-5 hours.)

[c170b53]

As mentioned the values might be in the STC or they may call for a standard torque in the STC or they may not mention it, all depends on when the original STC was produced. If I didn't know I might look at Cessna maintenance manual such as a 172 RG or Lycoming powered 172 manual to see if there"s a difference between the standard torque and Cessna"s values.
Was your engine test run by Penn Yan? Pre-oiling do a search on our site and you'll find lots of help. Generally you use an external pressurized oil source and pump oil into the oil galleries before the first start. You may want to do this if the engine is new or if it has sat for a long time since its last start. Also once you're running ensure you cycle the prop several times to entirely fill it before the first take-off eh!
Really nice engine by the way.

[N419A]

The lord mount torque is almost an A&P personal opinion, compress the rubber until it has a certain amount of pooch around the edges but not to much or to little. I'd follow your over-haulers break in instruction or their recommendations they may refer to Lycoming or ECI if they used those parts. Following their recommended break-in procedures is better if you have warranty issues. As for priming the oil system we've pulled the plugs just prior to run up, throw the prop through by hand three or four times then crank it on the starter we usually get oil pressure in less then 30 seconds (be careful not to over heat your starter). Replace the plugs and do your first short run up check for leaks then go fly for your first hour or two or what ever is recommended.

Have fun, Paul
(ps I am not an A&P these are procedures I have assisted my A&P with)

[DaveF]

Looks great! Is that an Avcon or Del-AIr?

Where did you find J3804-28 Lord mounts for $180?? I paid over $200 a year ago. My mechanic and I torqued them until the rubber just "pooched", as Paul said. The lower mounts are naturally in compression, so they need just enough torque to get sufficient threads clear of the nut.

I strongly recommend you install the engine mount to the engine and then mount the assembly on the firewall. The bolts through the Lord mounts aren't parallel to each other, and my Avcon engine mount is designed without a clear path for the bolts. Those two issues meant 1. I couldn't put the bolts and Lord mounts in the steel mount and then slide it onto the engine, 2. Nor could I fit mount and engine together and then install the bolts. I had to put the bolts into the steel mount with just a few threads showing, then jiggle the mount around while fitting the Lord rubber parts and slowly tightening the bolts. The point is that there's no way I could have maneuvered the engine the way I had to maneuver the relatively lightweight steel mount. I hope your steel mount isn't designed the way mine is, without a long clear shot to feed the Lord mount bolts.

As for oil prime, I pulled the plugs, hooked jumper cables from my car, and cranked until the oil pressure came up. I used the jumper cables because I didn't know how long I'd have to crank and wanted to make sure I had max RPM available. As it turned out, the oil pressure came up in about 10 revolutions of the engine. When I assembled the engine I put lots of oil/assembly lube goop in the oil pump housing to make sure I had prime.

As George said, don't lean. Run full rich and don't look at the fuel flow. Mine runs about 13.8 gph at full throttle at 6000-7000 msl.

[Gary]

Thank you all for the information. I didn't get most of it until I fought for 3 hrs getting the bolts to line up. It is now hung, but what a job. It I had it to do over I would have mounted the mount to the engine while it was hanging on the lift and then mount the whole thing to the firewall (as recommended). I have the Avcon modification and the same mount that doesn't allow a clear path for the bolts to pass thru. We managed to get 3 bolts in and left them lose, but the left lower was misaligned a bunch. Lots of wiggling, pushing, and lift and slant and it finally lined up. The nuts show a thread or two past the end and I will do a final torque tomorrow. Thanks for all the help. Gary

[n2582d]

Here's a page from the C-177 Service Manual. It doesn't give different torque values for the O-320 vs. O-360 Cardinals. FWIW the numbers are also the same for the 1977 C-172.

Click twice to enlarge

[GAHorn]

...
As for oil prime, I pulled the plugs, hooked jumper cables from my car, and cranked until the oil pressure came up. I used the jumper cables because I didn't know how long I'd have to crank and wanted to make sure I had max RPM available. As it turned out, the oil pressure came up in about 10 revolutions of the engine. When I assembled the engine I put lots of oil/assembly lube goop in the oil pump housing to make sure I had prime.

.....

OK... the internet gives lots of opportunity to misunderstand...so, let me say this: This is NOT any criticism of that technique of using the starter motor to turn the engine until oil pressure develops. OK?

But... let me ask the question.... : What's the difference between letting the starter motor turn the engine until oil pressure is indicated.... versus simply starting the engine and letting oil pressure develop?
Answer: The second method is easier on the starter motor, and gets the upper cyls lubricated sooner.

A good method to get oil pressure to "exist" before first engine-start is to pressurize the oil galleries with a grease-gun filled with' engine oil fed into the galleries..such as at the oil pressure pick-off point or one of the front gallery-plugs and an adaptor. One could also use a pot and air pressure such as commonly used to bleed/clear hydraulic systems or brake lines. In such a way, there is no engine rotation...before the oil pressure is applied to all galleries..... I.E. the galleries are filled with oil prior to start or rotation thereby providing oil at the first opportunity instead of risking a few score RPM before oil arrives at critical components.
Unfortunately, neither system will lubricate upper cyls and piston-rings, nor will hydraulic valve lifters be filled to capacity until the engine has actually started and oil has been "slung" up to the piston skirts and cylinder walls, and the cam has reciprocated the lifters, etc..
Lots of worry over a small matter if the engine was properly assembled with grease and oil to begin with.

[DaveF]

Yep, a pressure pot is the right way to pre-oil. Unfortunately, due to poor planning on my part, I had Permatex-ed the front galley plugs and I didn't want to risk having something go wrong removing them. My mechanic's pressure pot has an adapter to fit the center oil filter boss (filter removed), but using it risked creating an oil spew out the back of my new engine. So in the end I just cranked the engine and let the oil pump do its thing.

[minton]

The lord mount torque is almost an A&P personal opinion, compress the rubber until it has a certain amount of pooch around the edges but not to much or to little. I'd follow your over-haulers break in instruction or their recommendations they may refer to Lycoming or ECI if they used those parts. Following their recommended break-in procedures is better if you have warranty issues. As for priming the oil system we've pulled the plugs just prior to run up, throw the prop through by hand three or four times then crank it on the starter we usually get oil pressure in less then 30 seconds (be careful not to over heat your starter). Replace the plugs and do your first short run up check for leaks then go fly for your first hour or two or what ever is recommended.

Have fun, Paul
(ps I am not an A&P these are procedures I have assisted my A&P with)

As I recall there is an internal spacer that goes inside the two halves looks like a round tube/bolt goes through it. That being the case you can torque to bolt specs as you will only compress the mounts to that limit. I have seen various lengths of tube so know what you have and install them in the proper places and be careful not to bottom out the threads when torqueing. If you have differing lengths do your research and match up with the proper bolt length.. There should be torque requirements with the STC, or Cessna or maybe the mount mfg. as previously mentioned.

Also be sure of the (Maybe) requirements of an additional washer spacer between the mount and engine mount. Some STC's require them to adjust the engine angle of thrust.

Good luck.

[Gary]

Great information. I did look up what I paid for the Lord mounts..... I like to think my first answer was correct..... but no... they were $198 each! I will call Penn Yan before my first start to see what they recommend. They did run the engine on their test stand for 1.5 hrs. The AVCON STC drawings show the large washers between the mount and the engine on the lowers only. I have those in place. Thanks for all the help. Once the engine is in place, I need to finish the annual before the test flight (still current until the 31st)! Darn annuals. Thanks for all the help. Gary

[HerbJames]

Great information. I did look up what I paid for the Lord mounts..... I like to think my first answer was correct..... but no... they were $198 each! I will call Penn Yan before my first start to see what they recommend. They did run the engine on their test stand for 1.5 hrs. The AVCON STC drawings show the large washers between the mount and the engine on the lowers only. I have those in place. Thanks for all the help. Once the engine is in place, I need to finish the annual before the test flight (still current until the 31st)! Darn annuals. Thanks for all the help. Gary

Hi Gary. I'm new to this forum and found your thread. I hope that these answers were helpful to your application since I am also getting some nice info from the thread.
You mention the AVCON STC drawings here on your last post. I also have the AVCON 180 conversion with the cs prop and -A1A series Lyc O-360. I am missing my STC package that would have any info pertaining to the STC. It was missing when I purchased the aircraft. I only have my 337 which offers no help.
I am seeking help to acquire this info. I'm hoping to find anyone who would offer to share their drawings and instructions, etc.
Member DaveF mentions part number J3804-28 Lord mounts in the thread. I need to replace mine, but have no part number reference. Can you or anybody verify this part number. I haven't disassembled any mounts as yet to look for a part number. One vendor told me that what is stamped on the part may not be the actual part number, so as a result I am at a loss for verifiable information.
Thanks to anyone who will reply.
Herb

[DaveF]

Herb,

Lord J-3804-28 is the one and only engine mount for the Avcon and Del-Air. You won't find that part number on the engine mount, though.

Lord p/n J-3804-28 refers to an assembly that consists of three pieces: 2ea. J-3049-35 bonded mounts plus 1ea. J-12333-2 spacer. The only part number you can see when the assembly is installed on the airplane is J-3049-35, molded into the rubber.

Assemblies J-3804-20, -27, and -28 (used on various Pipers, Mooneys, Commanders, and the Avcon) all use the J-3049-35, but different spacers.

All the Avcon drawings are available in the forum's Maintenance Library, which is accessible to Association members. Best $45 you'll ever spend!

Dave

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Herb, members of TIC170A have access to what we believe is all the AVCON drawings in our library. Your forum membership is not set up as a TIC170A member so you can not see and access this info. If in deed your are a member of TIC170A, which means you'd have paid dues, let us know with a PM to the webmaster with your forum log in name and membership # (if you have it) and we can set you up. There is a wealth of info hidden from you. The AVCON info alone is worth 10 times the yearly dues.

To join: http://cessna170.org/MemberForm.html