Battery

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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reecewallace
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Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:34 am

Battery

Post by reecewallace »

My 170's battery is on the way out.

Suggestions for a new battery?

- Reece

1955 Cessna 170B
- Reece
1956 Cessna 170b
Nanaimo, BC Canada
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huminajumina
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Re: Battery

Post by huminajumina »

I just found that mine was swollen, so I used the opportunity to upgrade to the lightweight Odyssey SBSJ-16 with the F. Atlee Dodge Battery Box STC... the battery is in the $190 range, and the box is in the $480 range.... its a lot of money, but I will report that the battery starts the plane up great, no issues at all. and it saves at least 10lbs front up front. the GILL battery that I had before was great and had no issues, i suspect it became swollen while the battery was stored and the plane was not flown....
1954 170B Hedgesville, WV
Rudi
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daedaluscan
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Re: Battery

Post by daedaluscan »

Im doing the same for my conversion. Up here in Canada it was over $1000 for both. Though I think the Odyssey would fit in the old case with a spacer, but I think the STC is from Atlee Dodge.

My previous Concorde lasted 8 years of regular flying.

Edited, it was a Concord
Last edited by daedaluscan on Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Charlie

1956 170B C-GDRG #27019
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GAHorn
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Re: Battery

Post by GAHorn »

'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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mit
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Re: Battery

Post by mit »

After years and years of gills I switched to Concord. It has lasted longer than any Gill I ever had.
Tim
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gfeher
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Re: Battery

Post by gfeher »

My previous Concord RG-25 also lasted 8 years. Never had an issue with it. I replaced it with another Concord RG-25.
Gene Feher
Argyle (1C3), NY
'52 170B N2315D s/n 20467 C-145-2
Experimental J3 Cub Copy N7GW O-200
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GAHorn
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Re: Battery

Post by GAHorn »

I’d like to remind/inform folks that a battery’s specifications are an important consideration when selecting a battery. Why? Because a battery is not for starting an airplane engine. Let me repeat that:

A battery is NOT for the purpose of starting your engine.**

Although that is what we frequently think-of... the REAL purpose of a battery is to provide a reserve-capacity of electrical power should the electrical generating system (generator or alternator) FAIL in-flight. That battery is what will continue to provide electricity until you can get it on the ground somewhere. This becomes especially important at night... or in instrument conditions,... or when you NEED your radio and/or lights to complete the flight. (I’m reminded of the corporate Gulfstream fatal accident when the crew took off with only one generator working on what they thought was just a nighttime ferry-flight.)

So, when selecting a battery... Does it make sense to select a battery based upon PRICE..? Or Specifications...?

When you see a battery that weighs less than the original.... Ask yourself WHY does it weigh less?
Usually it’s because of less “capacity” or ability to perform or provide an equal amount or supply an equal amount of electricity over the same period of time.

Before you settle for a cheaper or lighter battery.... compare the Reserve Capacity, the Cold Cranking Amps, the Nominal Capacity of the replacement battery.

Then consider that the costs of a legal installation not only includes the battery, but perhaps the necessary parts and labor to meet the STC or Field Approval or other approval basis.... and the ongoing or additional maintenance costs such as any special battery maintainers, etc... and consider how that computes in the cost-equation.

I see that some owners are selecting replacement batteries on the basis of Cost, Weight, or Fashion.... but which are a LOSS OF CAPACITY and a REDUCTION of emergency capability.

**Although it’s easy to slip into the frame of mind that we want a good battery so we can start ‘er up.... That is really only a convenience, and it works into a regular pattern of “Pre-flight Inspection Activity”. When we start the engine using the battery.... it :

1-Confirms the battery is capable of supplying a considerable amount of electrical power? CHECK!
2-Immediately After the start, Does the charging system indicate a CHARGE? CHECK!
3-Before Take-Off.... Is the battery charge rate now Near Zero? (Indicating the battery capacity has been brought back up and stored for emergency-use? CHECK!

Before thinking about “upgrades” (if that truly is an “upgrade” if it actually results in LESS reserve capacity?).... consider if your aircraft has the necessary instrumentation to determine battery and electrical-system HEALTH. Do you have a VOLT meter? Do you have an AMMETER? (Or alternately a charge-rate indicator? And while on that subject...is an idiot-light really a good system tool? Or No...?)

How sensible is it to buy a hot, new designer-battery if you sacrifice reserve battery capacity and fail to upgrade your electrical-system-diagnostics/instrumentation?

Just sayin’...

When I first turn ON my Master Switch I immediately look at the Volt Meter. It should read 12 volts.
When I first turn ON my land/taxi lights during the pre-flight....I look at myh Volt Meter. It should read between 11-12 volts. Turning off those lights should show a return to near 12 volts.
When I crank the engine the AMMETER should show a heavy DIS-charge (or the meter isn’t working properly.)
When the engine STARTS...the Ammeter should show a heavy CHARGE rate. And as I taxi it should indicate a steady decline in that charge-rate. (If I’m taxying with land/taxi lights on ...and if the airplane has a generator.... it might show a discharge at low engine RPM...which is OK as long as during the Run-Up it recovers to a positive charge-rate.)
Before TakeOff the Ammeter and Volt Meter should indicate a re-charged battery. If not, then the battery should be allowed to complete it’s re-charge before TakeOff.... especially important at night and/or in instrument conditions. If it doesn’t then you need a new battery or you need maintenance on the charging system or both and the system is not airworthy. We don’t fly with unairworthy systems.

I hope this little diatribe wakes-up our thought processes. As Publius said in ancient Rome: “Familiarity breeds contempt.” We tend to take the battery for granted if it starts the engine... but starting that engine is only a TEST for the battery and charging system.... and we forget that our electrical system is an important part of our pre-flight and maintenance activity.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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TFA170
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Re: Battery

Post by TFA170 »

While that's a good philosophy, and a valid one to consider and keep in mind, how many airplanes are out there that have no starter and must be hand propped? I realize our 170s don't necessarily fall into this category, but it begs another question: How many fly hard IFR or extensive night IMC? While I'm sure a few do, I'd bet the large majority do a lot more day VFR flying where electrical failure isn't quite the emergency it might be IMC or even at night.

Another minor twist is the fact modern avionics and LED lights don't draw near the current of the stuff our planes came with originally. So, an "amp hour" stretches a bit based on how much under the standard load we are. If we shed unnecessary electrical load, which should be the first step once you realize you're on battery, we'll extend our time with battery. But that's assuming we catch it. The ammeter most of our old birds came with originally is generally on the other side of the cockpit outside our primary scan view. It wouldn't be hard to miss a small discharge...right up until the radio went silent. I've had it happen in a Mooney when I was sitting right seat. Asleep. Not that I'd have caught it, but it's interesting to wake up to a dark cockpit at night wondering why all the lights are off...thankfully it was a clear and a million sort of night and we were VFR in uncontrolled airspace...

But in a pinch, I'd be comfortable using the AHRS built into my Sentry ADSB to give me attitude information for an emergency letdown. The battery life on the Sentry and iPad, assuming a full charge, well exceeds my fuel endurance. So even with total electrical failure, I still have all my primary pitot/static instruments, my tach, CHT, oil temp & press, a wet compass, and an iPad with AHRS. If I've got vacuum systems, I might have attitude and DG. If it were IMC and I'm an emergency, I'd be comfortable flying an RNAV approach using Foreflight to guide me. I've really only lost comm/nav radios, transponder, and lights...which, if IMC on an IFR flight plan, can be stressful, but we've got procedures for that.

So, while it's far less from optimum, and not at all sufficient for primary use, in an unnoticed electrical failure scenario where you lose everything because I've only got an ammeter across the cockpit and don't pay as much attention to it as I should, I feel I could safely get down with what's left.

However, 99% of my flying is day/VFR in my 170...for now. It's not IFR capable as it is and I simply don't do much flying at night because my field isn't lit. So, unless I depart there and fly into night (which is how I log most of my night time in my 170), I simply fly day VFR. Losing the battery, like not having a good altimeter setting, simply isn't as big a deal day VFR. Day VFR fixes a lot. The iPad is a nice security blanket despite not being legal for much we're talking about here.

Everything in life is risk/reward and cost/benefit - I think 15 years ago, there'd be a much stronger case for 22AH (and more if you could get it) than there is today given the technology evolution. So, 16AH vs 22AH is the risk and the reward is 7-10lbs off the nose. For me, I'd like to save the forward weight until such time as I do a battery relocation STC...For those that do IFR, especially hard IFR, and lots of night, their calculus may be much different.

YMMV
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GAHorn
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Re: Battery

Post by GAHorn »

huminajumina wrote:I just found that mine was swollen, so I used the opportunity to upgrade to the lightweight Odyssey SBSJ-16 with the F. Atlee Dodge Battery Box STC... the battery is in the $190 range, and the box is in the $480 range.... its a lot of money, but I will report that the battery starts the plane up great, no issues at all. and it saves at least 10lbs front up front. the GILL battery that I had before was great and had no issues, i suspect it became swollen while the battery was stored and the plane was not flown....
Resurrecting an old thread…. how did you specifically connect the battery to the existing wiring harness? A typical aircraft battery uses 5/16 machine-thread studs or bolts. The Odyssey SBSJ-16 uses a 6mm bolt. How did you adapt the typical 5/16” ring=terminal?
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
hilltop170
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Re: Battery

Post by hilltop170 »

I made new cables with new ring terminals.
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
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GAHorn
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Re: Battery

Post by GAHorn »

Well, I will tell on myself. I consulted with two IAs and a DER and their views concurred that use of an FAA-PMA’d aircraft battery which fits the original battery box with minor alteration…..is a “minor alteration” on a Pt 91 aircraft.

So I ordered the Odyssey/Hawker SBS-J16 battery from Aircraft Spruce ($229 plus frt plus tax = $277) and found the mis-match of its’ 6mm terminals and the OEM 5/16” ring-terminal. The battery would also be “loose” inside the box without additional padding. This was resolved on at least two Alaskan installations using gypsum board (drywall/blueboard/sheet-rock) cut to size. I didn’t have any particular heartache over that.

My greatest concern was the matter of the mismatching electrical connection. Either a change of cabling….or adding copper bushings and washers….(I believe these begin to challenge the concept of “minor alteration”)…. which would introduce possible resistance and mechanical frailties. Odyssey offers a “SAE Terminal Kit”… which converts their 6mm …so I ordered that from BatteryMart. ($23 with $15 frt = $38) But that “kit” results in either standard automotive-clamp-cable connectors….or will accept a 3/8” machine bolt. Unfortunately that exceeds the height of the usual battery installation and will interfere with the OEM battery box lid…as well as place the OEM ring-terminal in contact with the battery box sides and will not accommodate the rubber grommet ordinary to the OEM installation…. Again, exceeds my idea of a “minor alteration” because it involves not just ONE (or two) small change of design…but multiple changes.

I decided to return the Odyssey for an addt’l $37 freight and the terminal kit for addt’l $10 Priority Mail and simply re-order a Concorde RG25XC.

Bottom line for me: I threw away a week of time and about $90 in total freight charges. (I found I could have saved some freight if I’d ordered the battery direct from BatteryMart dot-com… they don’t charge tax and offer free shipping.)

The Concorde RG25XC does qualify for Spruce’s free-shipping order…so If I’d simply replaced my aging RG25XC with another ….instead of thinking I could save approx $100 switching to an Odyssey…but ending up losing $90 ….. this battery replacement job would have cost me $375 and 3 days…instead of $465 and a week and a half of time.

BTW, checking records of battery purchases for these two airplanes over the last 20 years…. Concorde RG25XC batteries have lasted 5 years minimum and one served well for seven.

Second BTW, While Spruce has the highest listed current price for the Concorde …. they also have it “In Stock” and immediate shipping. The other common aircraft supply houses expect to have some “in stock” by mid-October.
(Can’t imagine why Odyssey thinks a 6mm bolt makes sense for an aircraft replacement battery.)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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dstates
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Re: Battery

Post by dstates »

GAHorn wrote: Second BTW, While Spruce has the highest listed current price for the Concorde …. they also have it “In Stock” and immediate shipping. The other common aircraft supply houses expect to have some “in stock” by mid-October.
(Can’t imagine why Odyssey thinks a 6mm bolt makes sense for an aircraft replacement battery.)
George,

Aircraft Spruce does price match. If you find the same part at another aircraft supply place just mention it in the comment box during checkout (I normally put in a link as well if I can) and they will price match. I've used this a dozen times and have never been turned down.

Doug
N1235D - 1951 170A - SN: 20118
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GAHorn
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Re: Battery

Post by GAHorn »

dstates wrote:
George,

Aircraft Spruce does price match. If you find the same part at another aircraft supply place just mention it in the comment box during checkout (I normally put in a link as well if I can) and they will price match. I've used this a dozen times and have never been turned down.

Doug
Thanks, Doug. I hadn’t thought of that possibility. Of course, most companies with that policy would deny price-matching when they note the competitor has No Stock. I had price-shopped Wag Aero, Chief, and a few others offering lower prices and none of them had any in-stock.

(on a similar note, Home Despot has a similar policy…. and when I bought some gate latch hardware from a local competitor for considerably less money they offered to price-match…. But I responded to them “Yes…and when you run Mom-n-Pop Hardware out-of-business you’ll go back to charging whatever you wish again.”
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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ghostflyer
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Re: Battery

Post by ghostflyer »

my concord battery died and i was expecting it due to age and a hard life . i ordered a new concord battery RG25 . Due to covid restrictions this new battery was about 2 years old sitting in shipping and on the shelf . Basically it failed. After having heaps of trouble of obtaining a battery in my part of the world ,i was resolved to purchase a “EarthX “ lithium battery. After doing a electrical load analysis due to all led lights and new avionics ,this battery would supply everything for 3 hours at least . That was within my bladder and fuel range . So i purchased a Earth X ETX900-TSO battery. They also sell adapter blocks for your leads. This battery has a STCno. SAO1005DE. The approved list included Cessna 182E to 182Q. and then a heap of piper PA-28 models . The concord battery weighs 23.5 lbs and the EarthX weighs just 5.4 lbs . This is a very tiny battery and i had to make spacers for it to stop its movement in the battery box. I was a sceptic originally on how such a small battery could turn over a Lycoming O-360 engine . This battery has a monitoring system built in ,to advise on issues within the battery. I have now been approved by our authorities to fit this battery due to other approvals of this battery being fitted to other aircraft of similar nature. So far this battery is working well and no issues. It’s my belief that EarthX are working on other approvals for different aircraft.
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GAHorn
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Re: Battery

Post by GAHorn »

The new Concorde RG25XC arrived and the included literature makes a statement I’ve never noticed previously…. They suggest replacement every 4 years. The logbook entries indicate that the last two RG25XC batteries each lasted 5 years in this ‘62 172-C.

I’m not ready for lithium…. at least not publicly. :twisted:

(Lithium is used to treat and prevent episodes of mania (frenzied, abnormally excited mood) in people with bipolar disorder (manic-depressive disorder; a disease that causes episodes of depression, episodes of mania, and other abnormal moods). Lithium is in a class of medications called antimanic agents.)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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