51 170A Gear Repair

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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Taythomp25
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51 170A Gear Repair

Post by Taythomp25 »

Hi there,

As I've seen so many do on here, I'm reaching out for some desperate advice for the first time on here.

I bought N1337D last year and it seems like I got a shoddy pre-buy. Don't get me wrong, I've loved owning this plane from the beginning. I still think it's the best thing I've done and I'm trying to stay positive while my wallet dips into the negatives! I took it to my home airport FBO and they were pleased with it.. no concerns. The same shop did an annual the next year and found the left door post was corroded and needed to be replaced, something even they admitted was definitely not a new problem. Fast forward another month and I brought the plane to an avionics shop for 2 safety upgrades I really wanted to make: EI FP-5 fuel flow and a 2nd comm radio. With the carpet and seats out, they noticed that the rivets from the floorboard to the gearbox on the right side were all completely sheared off. You can see the rivets sitting next to the original spot in pictures 19 & 20 in the link below. The left side was missing rivets entirely but I have pictures I took from the annual that show them missing from then as well. I've had a (new) mechanic come look at it multiple times now. We can't find any damage at all to suggest a hard landing (and I can't point to one that stuck out either). There's also no corrosion in the area, so the current thinking is that it's probably been this way for awhile. The gearbox was fully rebuilt in the 80s after a collapsed gear from an overrun landing, but it's been flying great since then, and again, no concerns from annuals/pre-buys.

My mechanic who I'm now using for the first time but is a referral from a fellow C170 owner in the area is saying the top/bottom skins need to be pulled back and both gearboxes need to be redone. The parts themself are fairly clean, so the majority of the work is labor. He's quoting around 80-100 hours to get it done, but curious on this groups thoughts? He's also suggesting I should repair the fin which you'll see in the first few pictures, but that's an entirely separate issue.

Pictures are saved here: https://www.icloud.com/photos/#0ssspR53 ... Vc27stwbIw

Thanks!
Taylor
N1337D
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daedaluscan
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Re: 51 170A Gear Repair

Post by daedaluscan »

I am really sorry for your unpleasant surprise. Get it to someone who really knows these airframes and do it right. Might be painful in the short term but it really is the only good option.
Charlie

1956 170B C-GDRG #27019
hilltop170
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Re: 51 170A Gear Repair

Post by hilltop170 »

Taylor-
You have a real dilemma there. Based solely on the pictures and nothing else, that airplane has been abused and repaired incorrectly. It is not going to be easy or cheap to fix. A one-man shop will not be able to remedy all the problems and keep their other customers satisfied at the same time. So your plane will languish in the back of the hangar and might take years to finish, if it ever is finished.

Charlie's previous advice is good, if you intend to keep the plane, get it fixed, and fly it a long time, then take it to a shop that specializes in repair work of that type and does it every day.

My recommendation is to fly it up to Mena, AR and let Del Lehmann at Mountain Airframe look at it. That is what he specializes in. He is honest, fair, won't take advantage of you, but might tell you it is beyond the value of the plane to repair it. Whatever he tells you will be correct. If you choose to repair it, he will get the job done in a reasonable timeframe. It won't be quick or cheap but will be done correctly.

The other option is to sell the plane as-is and disclose everything you know to potential buyers as well as write a hold-harmless sales agreement stating there may be other airworthiness issues that have not been found yet.

Sorry that is the situation you are in but those are the only two options I see.

Good luck.
Last edited by hilltop170 on Sat Sep 04, 2021 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
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c170b53
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Re: 51 170A Gear Repair

Post by c170b53 »

Tough one.
Just ridiculous that it was not pointed out to you before you bought it. I’ve seen one repair before out of Alaska like one sporting the large doubler yours has. That repair is screaming, run-away. Probably the aircraft was ground looped and put on its back, then repaired with the intention of the aircraft never coming out of the bush. The pictures show many different fastners, likely some of the holes were oversized. It also looks like non solid rivets also used in holes maybe not reamed to size.
Often a correct repair is the easiest for someone who knows what they are doing (maybe it costs a bit more but its done once) and it shows when someone has no clue. So, I see many oversized rivets which means even if you change the skins you’re going to find underlying structure with large holes and insufficient edge margins. Plane doesn’t have to be perfect (few are after 65 years or so) but having a whole row oversize with insufficient metal might be a problem.
A critical eye like Del would be a no brainer. Any airplane can be repaired but at what cost. He would have to get his flashlight out to give you an accurate number.
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
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ghostflyer
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Re: 51 170A Gear Repair

Post by ghostflyer »

Firstly I totally agree with what Jim and Richard has stated . OMG I couldn’t stop shaking my head. I would be approaching that person who did the prebuy and ask for your money back and some compensation. That so called prebuy inspection is just fraud . I,would find the paper work for the prebuy and see a lawyer . That aircraft is dangerous . We are talking about primary structure . I would be talking to the FAA also about the matter. Yes some of our members are shaking their head about getting the FAA involved but realistically we must get rid of the cowboys in the industry. You must take that aircraft to a person who really knows 170,s as their labour costs. [ plus the quality of work will be better] will be lower in the long run as they are not on a learning curve about 170,s. Note.. The original owner from whom you bought the aircraft from has a case to answer on this also. Caveat emptor is some people would say , but non disclosure about a dangerous situation or condition is something to be looked at.
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GAHorn
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Re: 51 170A Gear Repair

Post by GAHorn »

I “second” Richard and Jims comments and that the “ghost” is just as upset that this has happened to you also…. but getting the “FAA involved” at this point will likely only complicate your life…. and be unlikely to punish the guilty. If the FAA is brought into this you will likely find your airplane grounded and an incredibly complicated repair scheme be required before you ever get it back into the air….and that will be after they’ve decided they no longer need to hold it in an UN-repaired condition for a period of undetermined time for evidence.
The FAA will not “punish” the persons who are actually responsible for letting the airplane return to service… they will instead hold the people they can lay their hands on the easiest …. to prevent its return to service…and that will be YOU …and your local mechanic who had nothing to do with the shoddy “pre buy” inspection guy and they will not go after a previous owner or his inspectors either because it’s too difficult for them to prosecute. YOU will be the one held “hostage” because you are the present owner of an unairworthy airplane and you are the easiest to find because you called THEM.

Now you have a decision to make: Do you want the airplane still? If so, then calling Del Lehman at Mountain Airframe in Mena AR may be the best solution you can have. We know this guy… he is a fellow Member of our Assoc’n….and we’ve seen him save Members from themselves and from shoddy workmanship performed elsewhere.

If the answer is “no”….you don’t want to spend the time and money on it…. then again,… call Del….and get the REAL story on what it’s going to take to fix it so you can know what you might be able to sell it for and what your position is in it financially.

Lastly, do a “search” of these forums about “pre buy inspections” versus “annual inspections” and save yourself from this sort of thing in the future.

Good luck with this…and keep us “in the loop” … because we really want this to turn out “right” for you.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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c170b53
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Re: 51 170A Gear Repair

Post by c170b53 »

Very difficult to decipher the entire story here based on the pictures provided. Looks like plane has been flying for awhile since the repairs were carried out or at least some time has passed since. Also looks like there’s been relative movements in the structural parts and obvious sheared rivets. Nudging the intact rivets might disclose further extension of the damage. The more I think about this ; I just find this story almost unbelievable, are we being punked here?
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
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GAHorn
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Re: 51 170A Gear Repair

Post by GAHorn »

c170b53 wrote:Very difficult to decipher the entire story here based on the pictures provided. Looks like plane has been flying for awhile since the repairs were carried out or at least some time has passed since. Also looks like there’s been relative movements in the structural parts and obvious sheared rivets. Nudging the intact rivets might disclose further extension of the damage. The more I think about this ; I just find this story almost unbelievable, are we being punked here?
Your comments, Jim, has provoked me to actually go LOOK at the pics. (I hadn’t bothered previously …I relied on the verbal description.).
That piece of junk should go to an A&P school …..(IF they’ll accept it)…. Otherwise it might fetch a pretty penny at the aluminum recycling-yard.

Punked..?? LOL… could be!
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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c170b53
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Re: 51 170A Gear Repair

Post by c170b53 »

Sorry Taythomp25, I should have welcomed you to our association first off. I’m really sorry you have this problem to deal with. That’s one heck of a first post.
I also sometimes while connecting with family and friends on Facebook comment on 170 postings. I was perusing a post awhile back where a post showed some repairs someone had carried out on their plane. I think there were some positive comments made but from my perspective the repair work was just brutal. It’s obvious there’s a disconnect going on when there’s some much information available on this site and yet there’s owners seeking basic information on Facebook who need the tools available here.
Aircraft repair is not rocket science. All it takes is time, patience, knowledge and resources. The pictures provided suggest whomever did this was lacking the ability to manage the situation.
TT-25 you can manage to get this back on track but it will take a structured approach.
Again thanks for joining the association, hope we can help you as much as possible.
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
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daedaluscan
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Re: 51 170A Gear Repair

Post by daedaluscan »

There is enough the photos that this is clearly serious, and poorly repaired. How a competent inspection missed this is mind boggling. There are enough clues on the belly to demand a thorough gearbox inspection. The pre buy failed completely, but the chances of recovery after purchase are probably zero. Nobody expects a pre buy to catch every little squawk, and honestly that’s not the goal for me, it’s to find the major deal breakers. This is too obvious to miss.

Did the inspector know the airplane or previous owner? Was it really independent? All I can say is I am very sorry for the purchaser and I hope he can find a way to get this back on track and enjoy his 170 as much as we all enjoy ours.
Charlie

1956 170B C-GDRG #27019
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c170b53
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Re: 51 170A Gear Repair

Post by c170b53 »

Just re-read the post ;
My mechanic who I'm now using for the first time but is a referral from a fellow C170 owner in the area is saying the top/bottom skins need to be pulled back and both gearboxes need to be redone. The parts themself are fairly clean, so the majority of the work is labor. He's quoting around 80-100 hours to get it done, but curious on this groups thoughts? He's also suggesting I should repair the fin which you'll see in the first few pictures, but that's an entirely separate issue.
Ok….I don’t quite believe all of that either. Aside from the fin ( Look for a replacement), I’d say you’re looking at replacing the skins and those skins take quite a bit of disassembly. Understand the aircraft is built around the gearbox, so the bottom skin forward and aft need to be replaced, plus the lower strap. Wings and engine will need to be removed, the airframe will need to be supported. Floor has to come out, door sills disassembled then you’ll have a true idea of where your at.
I could be totally wrong but it appears there’s lots of rivets that don’t quite line up. Some rivets appear to be oversized. From the quality of the repair, I’ll guess that quite a few of the rivets have joggles in them, some may be overdriven and are presently installed with insufficient edge margins, all of which will only make the parts more difficult to take apart without ruining them if they are not already ruined.
That your real problem.
Again sorry this is your introduction to aircraft ownership
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
flaglor
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Re: 51 170A Gear Repair

Post by flaglor »

While you do have a serious problem right now, I don't think it is the end of the world, nor should you panic and give up. A COMPETENT sheet metal mechanic will be able to disassemble, replace some key parts and skins, and repair. I think your guy said 80-100 hours. That sounds about right I suppose. A lot of the work is going to be in getting the airplane into a position where the disassembly and rebuild can take place effectively and with precision. You have to get the weight and stress off the section that will be rebuilt. Hoist, fixtures, etc. You really need to find a sheet metal specialist, not just a shop A&P. If you are going to pay to fix, you want to be sure that the end result is worth the investment. Del, as mentioned, is an expert. If he is close enough to you, and willing, then its a sure thing. If not, there will be someone qualified if you look hard enough. Remember, what you are looking for is airworthiness and durability. It doesn't have to beautiful necessarily.
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c170b53
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Re: 51 170A Gear Repair

Post by c170b53 »

As I think about it, aircraft disassembly, repair area disassembly, fabrication, repairs, assembly, complete aircraft rigging required and paint touch up.
Two weeks, how many guys ?
As I believe I said at the time to Del when he surveyed Miles aircraft,” anything can be rebuilt but at what cost.”
Miles we don’t want to know! Obviously there was alot of sentimental value in his aircraft.
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
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ghostflyer
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Re: 51 170A Gear Repair

Post by ghostflyer »

Translation please… what does “Punked” mean in Australian. You Americans speak funny words . Another example ,you call the boot of a car a “trunk “ but a trunk is on a elephant ?? Jim ,you forgot to mention when you said about expertise ,resources etc.. it’s money etc that’s first in line for a repair .
hilltop170
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Re: 51 170A Gear Repair

Post by hilltop170 »

punked = duped/tricked

Before cars had "trunks", "a" trunk was fastened onto the rear of a car to carry luggage, tools, etc, boot (footwear) is the odd term that needs explaining, same thing for bonnet, which is a lady's hat. :lol:

And what about paraffin? That's wax, not kerosene.

And what's the deal with Whitworth wrenches? Who thought that might ever be a good idea?

We could go on..........

Hey, I didn't start this hijack but it's fun in any case. :D
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
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