Panel refurbishment - back to classic

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c170b53
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Re: Panel refurbishment - back to classic

Post by c170b53 »

Interesting heat distribution duct, some mods are needed, probably best to keep an eye out for a complete wreck.
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
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henrikvs
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Re: Panel refurbishment - back to classic

Post by henrikvs »

c170b53 wrote:Interesting heat distribution duct, some mods are needed, probably best to keep an eye out for a complete wreck.
Yes... Can you give some more info on what you make of it - and what we need to do?

Also, our windshield get pretty icy - so we have been thinking of updating heating to that of later models - but we have very little info about that so far. Help appreciated here as well.
Last edited by henrikvs on Fri May 06, 2022 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: Panel refurbishment - back to classic

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Henrik, I would never suggest you don't know what to do or go about this.

In order to get to where your panel is now, the entire original instrument panel, That large sheet of aluminum all else is attached to, was removed and replace. Many consider this a major alteration in the states requiring an approval. You will end up reversing this.

Also, while it is not possible to tell by the instruments in the center of your current panel, it is likely they would be to deep to install there and so someone went to the trouble of converting the T in the yoke control to a Y control. You most likely would not have to reverse this if it was done. But if you do have a Y you should know you do not have a standard configuration under the panel and there might be some interference moving forward with your project. Having said this, I can't imagine what interference might be an issue with a stock instrument panel and Y control.
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henrikvs
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Re: Panel refurbishment - back to classic

Post by henrikvs »

Thanks for your input!
Also, while it is not possible to tell by the instruments in the center of your current panel, it is likely they would be to deep to install there and so someone went to the trouble of converting the T in the yoke control to a Y control.
Got it! "Unfortunately" (I guess), it has not been converted to a Y, we are still bound by the original T. That definitely implies restrictions, and it will be tight for sure - but I hope we would be able to fit the desired instruments. We will deviate from the original instruments, but I have seen other panels with similar setups, so I hope it should work. Our plan is this for the 8 instruments in the top overlay (left to right):

- Left side: ASI, 275 (AI), 275 (HSI)
- Middle top: ALT, middle bottom: VSI
- Right side: 275 (EIS), T&B, Tach (or something else)
In order to get to where your panel is now, the entire original instrument panel, That large sheet of aluminum all else is attached to, was removed and replace. Many consider this a major alteration in the states requiring an approval. You will end up reversing this.
This is a big thing for sure. Does it make sense to hope to take shortcuts here? What about skipping the shock mounting pieces and instead go for one major back plate (similar to modern panels) but with the addition of the 3 main overlays. And, if we really want the correct appearance with bevels for the four 1-1/4" instruments, we'd need an extra back mounted plate for the them as well. Would this be a regulative question rather than a question of what is mechanically doable?
Last edited by henrikvs on Fri May 06, 2022 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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c170b53
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Re: Panel refurbishment - back to classic

Post by c170b53 »

Well now it sounds like your getting down to the nuts, bolts and rivets.
Can you do the work yourself ?
Do you have an EASA maintenance licence. (I had a B2 issued for a KLM MD-11 licence). I think they are somewhat hard and time consuming to get.
Or do you have someone to do the paperwork for you?
Doing the work is 1) expensive 2) time consuming 3) rewarding and thats repeatable a few times. So getting down to the specifics or the nuts and bolts will require much planning at a detailed level knowing specifically what is to be accomplished. Sounds like it might help to break things down into smaller bites to make it manageable.
I’ll suggest pictures might help us, help you in identifying what you have to start with.
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
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c170b53
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Re: Panel refurbishment - back to classic

Post by c170b53 »

D94486FD-3F6B-4E73-8E04-7865D96A2022.jpeg
Here’s a pic of the fuselage and the panel mounting Figure 19 item 47 is the panel substructure, guess first thing is to determine how much of it is still there.
Jim McIntosh..
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c170b53
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Re: Panel refurbishment - back to classic

Post by c170b53 »

5F91DEA7-7ED7-455B-93EE-613B168B67E3.jpeg
Guess this is better pic from the IPC
Jim McIntosh..
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GAHorn
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Re: Panel refurbishment - back to classic

Post by GAHorn »

(My previous comments were directed at Rich’s pics of his torn-apart panel and may have been misinterpreted so I deleted the post.)

I have looked and have only a portion of the piano-key switch-board. I doubt it will be of any help unless you find a great many additional pieces to make this restoration. (because to help another Member I removed one of the keys and associated switch and sent it to him…therefore the piano key/switch panel I have is no longer complete…. however You or any Member is welcome to all or any portion of it….it belongs to the Assoc’n.)

I am also a person who appreciates the “original” appearances of classic aircraft and…while I can admire the hard work and workmanship that goes into creating a “modern” panel such as N11111 now has… I am also curious when owners take classic airplanes and try to make them look “modern”. But..Each to his Own… Every Owner gets to do what they want to their property if it’s legal….(and sometmes even if it isn’t.) :wink:

I agree your present panel looks well-executed and certainly isn’t unsightly at all. The floating false panel for post ‘53 B models sometimes appear online but the earlier ‘52 models…not as often.

What Jim stated about the “duct work” … I believe refers to the duct cross-over in front of the rudder pedals which appears to have been created and heavily modified by cutting-away large areas…. perhaps to increase air flow. The later ‘53 B-models and subsequent had a much improved cabin heating/ventilation and windshield defrost provisions. One of our Members, Richard Pulley, has created a similar improvement to his A-model and you might search the Forums and see his excellent results. (I’ll try to find that and link it in an edit.) Here it is: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=10951&p=99845&hili ... uct#p99845

WELCOME and I’m sure you’ll find lots of willing help here.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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henrikvs
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Re: Panel refurbishment - back to classic

Post by henrikvs »

GAHorn wrote:I have looked and have only... ...WELCOME and I’m sure you’ll find lots of willing help here.
Many thanks! There is so much gathered knowledge in this club, and documented in this forum - amazing!

We might have another, complete, piano on the hook. Let's hope. Maybe it lacks some part, if so, I will check with you about yours!

Our present panel is working fine and we don't really have to replace it of course. But there are some required stuff we must add, and some things that we want to change - and we will be able to remove many of the existing instruments. So the idea begins, and grows, and you know... becomes a huge project. :wink: We certainly don't plan to be original in every sense, it's more the overall appearance that we look to achieve: the three overlays in nice colour, the piano, and the look of the plexiglass. A functional piano is a plus. A glove compartment would really be seen as a bonus - if we can make it happen. And some smaller details such some push/pull levers and stall horn would be nice - but are not a must.

Funny really, it's only thanks to the modern digital instruments that it's now possible to go back to the classical panels with fewer holes! No need for a six pack and a stack of engine gaguges any more :D

We have not yet dug into the duct problem. Summer is here - so it's not urgent right now ;) We sure need to ask the previous owner what happened there, if it was intentional for some reason, or if it was just not fully restored. Before buying, we made a pre-buy, kicked the tires, checked the papers, pulled cylinders and even discovered corrosion on the camshaft that lead to a teardown of the engine - but we did not think too much about those ducts at that time. Well well, it's an old plane, and a lot to check.
Here it is: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=10951&p=99845&hilit=heater+duct#p99845
Thanks! That's great, exactly what I was gonna look for! If you come to think of any other texts about that, let me know! I guess it would make sense to deal with the heating at the same time as doing the panel. We'll just have to read up upon it and see if it's worth it or if it's too much work.
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henrikvs
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Re: Panel refurbishment - back to classic

Post by henrikvs »

You can find anything on the internet, except a blueprint of the side panels!

I'd love someone to prove me wrong! Until then, it would be highly appreciated if anyone has access to the following measurements - for my continued planning purposes only (not for construction). Can I trust that the left side is pretty much a mirror of the right side? :roll:
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GAHorn
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Re: Panel refurbishment - back to classic

Post by GAHorn »

henrikvs wrote:….stall horn would be nice - but are not a must. ….
Actually… a stall warning horn is required equipment on a B-model per Type Certificate. This is likely due to the semi-fowler flaps effect on stall plus balanced flight controls and improved wing geometry (twist/dihedral/washout) which creates more pleasing flight characteristics…but also removes a lot of the natural airframe “buffet” of stall and results in less warning of the impending stall. The original 170 fabric wing was a “square” plan-form and has excellent airframe buffet, while the A-model almost completely removed the buffet, except the flight controls (elevator mostly) still generated some indication of buffet. The B-model is so much smoother-handling at the point of stall that a stall warning system was mandated by FAA.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
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An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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c170b53
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Re: Panel refurbishment - back to classic

Post by c170b53 »

As for the duct work, basically the differences between your s/n and later "B"s : on your firewall you have a round shut off valve on the L/H side and no distribution duct on the cabin side of the firewall. Later B's move the shut off valve to the right hand side and is square in appearance. In the cabin there's the added square distribution duct riveted to the firewall that accepts the air from the shut off valve. The inside square duct has adjustable louvers above the occupants feet, an outlet on the left hand side for 2"(?) scat tubing to route air up to the windscreen in front of the pilot and outlets on the ends to route air to side distribution ducts, in the sidewall panels. The side distribution design was widely used on later Cessna models. If the panel is coming out it would be an opportune time to upgrade to the later B style heat distribution system, even obtaining the lower and upper scat tube receptacles (on top of the square duct L/H side and riveted underneath the glare shield) and installing those parts to get air up to the windshield. And I guess this is might be the edge of the rabbit hole most of us have ventured into :D
Jim McIntosh..
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henrikvs
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Re: Panel refurbishment - back to classic

Post by henrikvs »

therefore the piano key/switch panel I have is no longer complete…. however You or any Member is welcome to all or any portion of it…
It seems as a small part is missing on the set I have my eyes on - see attached image. Do you have that piece?
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GAHorn
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Re: Panel refurbishment - back to classic

Post by GAHorn »

No,…but I think that’s an easily made part.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
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An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: Panel refurbishment - back to classic

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

I believe the left and right panels are mirror image with the excepting of what ever instrument holes might be in them. FYI the right panel you might find may or may not have the 2 holes above the glove box door if I recall correctly. Those where for optional equipment.

The stall warning on a B model is found under the left yoke shaft. And a warning horn is required as GAHorn explained. However, the warning horn does not have to be mounted in the panel as no light is required, just the horn. On later (by '55) B models the horn (and light) are mounted behind the glove box deep in under the panel.
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