F&M Oil adapter slippage and leakage

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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lowNslow
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Re: F&M Oil adapter slippage and leakage

Post by lowNslow »

hilltop170 wrote: I’m surprised none of the manufacturers of these oil filter adapters have figured this out as the o-rings will allow some rotation of the adapter without leaking.
What kind of O-rings?
Karl
'53 170B N3158B SN:25400
ASW-20BL
hilltop170
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Re: F&M Oil adapter slippage and leakage

Post by hilltop170 »

Karl-
I don’t know, oil resistant aircraft quality is all I know.

I have posted pictures on my original post so you can get a visual of what was done. I was watching a guy assemble a new engine and happened to see this procedure.

It later dawned on me why don’t the Tempest folks do this on their oil filter adapters?
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
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hilltop170
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Re: F&M Oil adapter slippage and leakage

Post by hilltop170 »

On another note, Tempest has come up with ANOTHER new gasket design that they say heals all the previous gasket problems. Don’t know if this is common knowledge or been discussed before but they sell a gasket kit with the “new” gasket and a crush washer on their website.

Talking to the Tempest tech rep, my IA said the guy told him 90% of the problems with their adapters leaking is due to “installation error” such as loose safety wire or safety wire running the WRONG direction and only 10% is the gaskets themselves, and that might be because of incorrect installation as well. When installed correctly with the correct gaskets, they don’t see problems with leaking. Of course, they aren’t going to accept responsibility for installation errors, that’s why they designed a new gasket! :lol:

BTW- I bought a new Tempest adapter kit instead of the Airwolf simply b/c I didn’t want the extra hoses running behind the engine. But, we had to send it back for credit because the alternator was large enough that it interfered with the filter adapter. So far, I haven’t chosen to add the Airwolf but probably will at the next annual.

I have a full-flow Airwolf on the 195 b/c it has an external oil cooler with hoses already so two more potential leak sources isn’t that big a deal to me. Plus, the filter is very easy to change and there is no provision for an engine-mounted oil filter anyway, they didn’t use them back in 1935 when the Jacobs engines were designed. With the open cowl ring all the way around the engine, any oil leak shows up on the windshield pretty quick!
Last edited by hilltop170 on Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
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GAHorn
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Re: F&M Oil adapter slippage and leakage

Post by GAHorn »

Unfortunately an error has been made in the FAA AMOC letter which does not include the O-300-A engine for the use of the newest PTFE/Stainless/fiber gasket. Also, BEFORE using this new gasket the local FSDO must approve the use of this AMOC. (See the text of the FAA letter)

From the Tempest website:
“ Description
Stratus Tool Technologies ST07 is a multi-layer gasket designed to combine the enhanced anti-leak characteristics of the FM07 fiber gasket with the resiliency and resistance to sudden rupture of the AN900-28 copper crush washer. The outer facings of this new gasket are comprised of an expanded PTFE matrix that provides better conformance to sealing surface imperfections. The perforated stainless steel core is embedded within the ePTFE to enhance stability and increase blowout resistance. Laboratory and flight testing have confirmed that this new gasket eliminates the nuisance oil leaks some operators have experienced when replacing FM07 fiber gaskets with AN900-28 copper crush washers in compliance with AD 2002-04-04 and Stratus Tool Technologies SB-001 Rev. B.”

From the FAA:
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
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n2582d
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Re: F&M Oil adapter slippage and leakage

Post by n2582d »

GAHorn wrote:Unfortunately an error has been made in the FAA AMOC letter which does not include the O-300-A engine for the use of the newest PTFE/Stainless/fiber gasket.
Why does the O-300A need this AMOC? The Tempest AD doesn’t apply to the O-300A.
Gary
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: F&M Oil adapter slippage and leakage

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

n2582d wrote:
GAHorn wrote:Unfortunately an error has been made in the FAA AMOC letter which does not include the O-300-A engine for the use of the newest PTFE/Stainless/fiber gasket.
Why does the O-300A need this AMOC? The Tempest AD doesn’t apply to the O-300A.
Gary, you are right, it can't until the AD and the AMOC is corrected to include the entire 0-300 line it always should have had.

So what approval would a 0-300 owner use to use the new ST07 gasket? Wonder what Stratus has to say?

I never had a leaking problem for the few hundred hours I operated my F&M adapter, but I made a 1" square socket and insured the adapter was torqued. Even torqued correctly I moved the adapter at a filter change and had to install a new crush washer and retorque then from that time forward was always careful not to move the adapter removing or installing a filter. This was prior to the SBs and AD. I could not safety the adapter as it should be now.

Given my experience, if I still had a C-145 or 0-300 with a F&M/Stratus adapter, I'd comply with the SBs and AD and continue to run the AN crush washer til the new gasket is proven over time.
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GAHorn
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Re: F&M Oil adapter slippage and leakage

Post by GAHorn »

n2582d wrote:
GAHorn wrote:Unfortunately an error has been made in the FAA AMOC letter which does not include the O-300-A engine for the use of the newest PTFE/Stainless/fiber gasket.
Why does the O-300A need this AMOC? The Tempest AD doesn’t apply to the O-300A.
For the same reason you had in this post… :wink:
: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=16016&p=148298&hil ... ch#p148298

LOL… Yes, of course a double error has occurred when both AD and SB miss the fact that the most common model O-300 (in a 170) is the A-model and that engine-model is the one most commonly installed in airplanes that use the Tempest CO-300 filter adaptor.

In the original issuance of the AD one applicant asked for an AMOC (Alternate Method of Compliance) which might use a gasket material similar to that used in prop governors. FAA disagreed stating “ The unsafe condition that prompted this AD was caused by failure of the fiber gasket due to improperly maintained or installed oil filter adapters, not the amount of torque applied to a specific gasket material.”

Subsequently Tempest has actually developed such a gasket….and claims it meets the FAA AMOC… (despite the FAA previous statement to the contrary)… and Tempest then plays “CYA” by stating in their new-gasket-literature to FIRST gain approval from your FSDO before using the gasket. :?

Link to AD: https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... iprocating
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
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An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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Joe Moilanen
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Re: F&M Oil adapter slippage and leakage

Post by Joe Moilanen »

The fiber gasket was definitely a mistake, and the ST07 may well be the best solution but I feel pretty comfortable with the copper crush gasket for now. Sure, it may develop a slight leak if not monitored, but it wouldn't be a catastrophic failure in my opinion. If I were to do it again I'd probably go with a remote. I know there is some concern about "hose" failure, but if we can't trust modern day hoses we had better quit flying...

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Marion
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Re: F&M Oil adapter slippage and leakage

Post by Marion »

This is what I found to be the problem.

https://youtu.be/GBquGmmowAs
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Re: F&M Oil adapter slippage and leakage

Post by Marion »

Same problem I have.
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: F&M Oil adapter slippage and leakage

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Marion wrote:This is what I found to be the problem.

https://youtu.be/GBquGmmowAs
As the video maker said Tempest told him, this problem has been around F&M adapter was made. And so it is old news for those familiar with the F&M installation as long as some of us are. The originator of the F&M adapter way back also loaned out a tap for installers as Tempest is doing. It was said to be used to clear the threads in the accessory case, of accumulated dirt and grime clogging the threads. I suspect it was also actually was used to extend or clear the thread at the end for a turn or two more so the thread on an adapter or a original screen, would not bottom out like videographers appears to be doing

It is apparent that not all accessory cases are the same in the thread area. Many, including mine, have enough thread to significantly tighten the adapter against rotation without chasing the thread with a tap. Even so care had to be taken not to overcome that grip, which could be done trying to loosen a stuck or over tightened filter.

Sounds like the videographers adapter was not able to be installed on his accessory case with much grip to stop rotation. The design, like many designs, is not flawless in design or execution of installation. The video nicely points out the mass that is being held from rotation which on our 170s might be the worse case scenario compared to other installations of this adapter series. And the manufacture, F&M now Tempest, can't control the amount of clear threads the installers accessory case might have. F&M and Tempest have made this issue known to installers and have provided help and a cure for short thread issues in the form of a loaner tap.
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Marion
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Re: F&M Oil adapter slippage and leakage

Post by Marion »

Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:
Marion wrote:This is what I found to be the problem.

https://youtu.be/GBquGmmowAs
As the video maker said Tempest told him, this problem has been around F&M adapter was made. And so it is old news for those familiar with the F&M installation as long as some of us are. The originator of the F&M adapter way back also loaned out a tap for installers as Tempest is doing. It was said to be used to clear the threads in the accessory case, of accumulated dirt and grime clogging the threads. I suspect it was also actually was used to extend or clear the thread at the end for a turn or two more so the thread on an adapter or a original screen, would not bottom out like videographers appears to be doing

It is apparent that not all accessory cases are the same in the thread area. Many, including mine, have enough thread to significantly tighten the adapter against rotation without chasing the thread with a tap. Even so care had to be taken not to overcome that grip, which could be done trying to loosen a stuck or over tightened filter.

Sounds like the videographers adapter was not able to be installed on his accessory case with much grip to stop rotation. The design, like many designs, is not flawless in design or execution of installation. The video nicely points out the mass that is being held from rotation which on our 170s might be the worse case scenario compared to other installations of this adapter series. And the manufacture, F&M now Tempest, can't control the amount of clear threads the installers accessory case might have. F&M and Tempest have made this issue known to installers and have provided help and a cure for short thread issues in the form of a loaner tap.
Bruce,
Thank you very much for your reply on the video of my F & M. You are obviously very knowledgeable on this thing, unlike myself. You articulate the issues better than my video. One comment you mentioned above was:

<<<<Even so care had to be taken not to overcome that grip, which could be done trying to loosen a stuck or over tightened filter.>>>>>

This is interesting to me as I've been assuming chasing the threads and getting a full 65 ft/lbs would make this a very stout connection and could withstand the forces of installing and removing the filter without fear of the spool spinning. (without lock wire)

The STO7 looks very slippery and I'm afraid I may have the same issue? There's a 0300 in the hanger with mine that just came out of annual which has the original fiber gasket on it. No leaks. In an annual, shouldn't this have been addressed by the A & P?

Thanks again.
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: F&M Oil adapter slippage and leakage

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Marion, I installed my F&M at an overhaul I did on the engine knowing of the issues of the leaking adapter. I made sure the threads were good and long enough so no bottoming out was happening. I make my own 1" square socket so I could properly torque the adapter. Life was good.

First oil change, I put a wrench on the oil filter and pulled without thinking about rotating the adapter and the adapter moved which shocked me at first till I thought about it. Reset and retorqued the adapter and life was good. No leaks. The adapter didn't move easily but I could see how others might have seeping problems if not careful removing a filter.

From that point on I always took care to place the wrench on the filter such that loosening the filter would not loosen the adapter. I have no further trouble for the 3-400 hrs I operated that engine. This was prior to the first "special" fiber washer which I never used and of course at that time there was no extra safety wiring to prevent adapter rotation.
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Re: F&M Oil adapter slippage and leakage

Post by Marion »

Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:Marion, I installed my F&M at an overhaul I did on the engine knowing of the issues of the leaking adapter. I made sure the threads were good and long enough so no bottoming out was happening. I make my own 1" square socket so I could properly torque the adapter. Life was good.

First oil change, I put a wrench on the oil filter and pulled without thinking about rotating the adapter and the adapter moved which shocked me at first till I thought about it. Reset and retorqued the adapter and life was good. No leaks. The adapter didn't move easily but I could see how others might have seeping problems if not careful removing a filter.

From that point on I always took care to place the wrench on the filter such that loosening the filter would not loosen the adapter. I have no further trouble for the 3-400 hrs I operated that engine. This was prior to the first "special" fiber washer which I never used and of course at that time there was no extra safety wiring to prevent adapter rotation.
Appreciate the history. I'm thinking I'll borrow the tempest tap and chase the threads and try the install with another ST07 and lock wire if possible in "both directions". When I removed my filter, it was tight as hell but I was relieved the spool didn't move (lock wire holding it). Then, I began installing the new filter, the spool moved very easily in the un-lock wired direction and I began this journey of trying to get all the info I could on it. I was and am amazed how common a problem this is.

Air wolf has a caution about the threads on their website, so if I want a filter, I'm going to have to tap it. If I've got the flow direction right on the filter, any cuttings that are too small or just missed would enter the filter before getting out to the rest of the engine.
Thanks again
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Re: F&M Oil adapter slippage and leakage

Post by GAHorn »

Marion wrote:…..There's a 0300 in the hanger with mine that just came out of annual which has the original fiber gasket on it. No leaks. In an annual, shouldn't this have been addressed by the A & P?

Thanks again.
If the annual inspection was performed after the AD was issued…then it should have been addressed.

If it was not addressed at annual inspection…then it should be addressed prior to the expiry of the “grace period”.

(I believe an AD can be issued for example, which might give 50 hours “grace” upon which it must be accomplished. If the annual inspector considered the grace-period not-yet expired…he might complete the inspection without accomplishment. BUT…I believe he should at least mention in his entry that it is “due within X-number of hours or calendar” whichever is applicable. )

An annual inspection can be accomplished and “signed-off” with outstanding deferred items… which any A&P or Owner (if preventive-mx) can accomplish without further involvement with that inspector.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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