Original W&B and equipment listed - WHY?

[1moretw]

Near the end of a tortuous 7 month annual for a 170B I purchased in April and my IA has asked me to obtain the original equipment list and W&B for my 70 year old 170B. Since there are at least two W&B and equipment lists in my records that were developed since 1952, the original documents seem to me to be worthless other that for historical purposes. Reason for the post is to get input from some of you IA's as to what the purpose might be. My FSDO assures me that these old documents are not necessary so I am somewhat puzzled.

[GAHorn]

Would you consider ideas from non-IA’s..?

(If a Wt & Bal / Equipt List seemed improbable, I’d personally want to check the math against the previous version…. or at least see when the airplane was last weighed. The problem with original “factory” W&Bs is that they were usually computed…not derived from an actual weighing… but they are considered sufficiently accurate. Your IA may suspect the existing ones aren’t accurate and wants to see how they were derived from the original. The alternative is to weigh the airplane.)

[1moretw]

Reasonable explanation and thanks. MK

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I'm sure George is correct in his thinking. Your IA and I think alike that being the case.

I've owned 5 airplanes now. I never researched the records of the first but the last 4, a Cub, 2- 170s and a Piper Vagabond, I have. In fact one of the first things I did upon receiving the records of the Vagabond was to do a W&B/ Equipment list audit. Not one of the 4 aircraft I've owned that I've done this, was correct. My second 170, I'm sure still to this day had never been on a set of scales. When I got involved with it the W&B still included the weight for the stretcher installed at the factory.

Besides finding errors auditing the W&B and Equipment list from day one is a great why for an owner to get a complete idea of what has been installed or removed from the aircraft over its life. Ever wonder what those mysterious holes are you might find someplace?. Or perhaps extra control cable slot openings in the tail. In my case the holes where from the stretcher and the slots from a wing leveler all once installed.

[n2582d]

Mike,
Seven month annual? The I.A. must have some serious boat payments to make!

As you know, you are not required to have the original equipment list or weight and balance. My thought was -- to keep good relations with your mechanic -- to pay the nominal fee to the FAA for these records. But, as I look at the records I got from the FAA for my plane -- a '52 model built a bit before yours -- these documents are not included. I'm guessing you could pay several hundred dollars to get them from Cessna (Piston Hotline +1 316-517-1700 piston_support@txtav.com). Yours are probably nearly identical to mine which I posted recently here.

AC 43-9C says, "Section 91.417(b) requires records of maintenance, alterations, and required or approved inspections to be retained until the work is repeated, superseded by other work, or for one year."

[1moretw]

Unfortunately, the original W&B and equipment list is not kept by the FAA. We have the CD and it is void of the original W&B. Appreciate the copy of yours. FSDO says not required but when I asked for confirmation in writing, they balked because technically, I live in a different FSDO from where my A/C is located. Maybe the rules change as you change FSDO's.

[GAHorn]

Unfortunately, the original W&B and equipment list is not kept by the FAA. We have the CD and it is void of the original W&B. Appreciate the copy of yours. FSDO says not required but when I asked for confirmation in writing, they balked because technically, I live in a different FSDO from where my A/C is located. Maybe the rules change as you change FSDO's.

FAA already gave it to you “in writing”…with the FAR Gary posted.

[Dillonz170b]

Hears a really good answer to your question, share with your IA as basically, he's just trying to keep his but out of the weeds and yours as well. My "new to me 170B" weight & balance is on my "list" of things to fix. Hopefully, this link will work.....
http://twisted-wrench.com/files/W_and_B ... t_List.pdf

[voorheesh]

When an IA certifies completion of an annual inspection, he/she is verifying compliance with type certificate data, proper alteration ( if any), and in condition for safe operation. This would include verification of current empty weight and center of gravity. The existence of that data is required at time the airworthiness certificate is issued and must be in a format that is “repeatable”, per Part 23. Accurate W&B data is necessary for a pilot’s subsequent compliance with 91.9. The equipment list is one means an IA can verify currency of weight and balance. During an annual, the actual installed equipment should conform to the current equipment list which along with other maintenance records can then help validate the recorded weight and CG. For example, if an IA finds a component that differs from the equipment list or a maintenance record that included a change to prior empty weight CG, that would bring the W&B report into question and would need to be resolved before the annual can be signed off.

There is no specific rule for these records, but how else can an IA ensure they are accurate and then certify airworthiness? If there are missing prior records or doubt, the airplane can be fairly easily reweighed and a new or updated equipment list developed (a previous commenter provided a sample template). We should remember that staying within W&B limits is a serious safety issue and I appreciate any IA who takes this seriously.

Regarding the FAA giving us verification in writing at the FSDO level: Inspectors follow a very specific handbook which directs how they inform the public on any range of subjects that require written communication. They do not issue random opinions or interpretations at any FSDO, at least if they are following their internal guidance. After spending many years in industry and in FAA, my advice is to conduct your own research into compliance and safety. You can rely on the voluminous rules and guidance provided to make up your own mind and in most cases be on firm footing by “knowing” the answer yourself. The FAA may not always agree with you but remember that they have to back up their positions with the same written guidance that you can find yourself if you have time and inclination.