170B fatal accident today

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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redacted
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170B fatal accident today

Post by redacted »

Owner wasn't a member here. N2710D, a 170B

https://www.koamnewsnow.com/plane-crash ... ay-patrol/
Nathaniel Perlman
1952 170B
N2282D S/N 20434
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mmcmillan2
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Re: 170B fatal accident today

Post by mmcmillan2 »

RIP, that plane sure is mangled.
170B owner, KCFD, CFI(I), ATP Multi
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Joe Moilanen
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Re: 170B fatal accident today

Post by Joe Moilanen »

Guessing stall/spin from the mess. RIP, so sad.

Joe
4518C
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redacted
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Re: 170B fatal accident today

Post by redacted »

One of the gear legs and wheel assembly is 40 feet from the main wreckage. That’s violent, Cessna gear is pretty tough.
Nathaniel Perlman
1952 170B
N2282D S/N 20434
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N8293A
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Re: 170B fatal accident today

Post by N8293A »

Another full flap slip accident possibly?
Steve McGreevy
N8293A '53 C170B
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GAHorn
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Re: 170B fatal accident today

Post by GAHorn »

Steve, that’s a distinct possibility which Paul Wood also brought up on the phone yesterday. If so, we may never actually see NTSB say-so…. for example, one of our most distressing accidents strongly indicates that as the cause..yet NTSB only alludes to a stall/spin….not a slip with flaps extended which can result in a stall/spin type of result.
While not impossible, It’s curious that if a spin was involved that this accident has both wings continuous, relatively intact, flat on the ground and not twisted-off. (apologetically posting a picture here)
35F3EA08-3961-4891-ACC7-F4E29B05B41F.jpeg
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
voorheesh
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Re: 170B fatal accident today

Post by voorheesh »

The picture reveals the accident took place on an airport, but not where on the airport. There are no reports of witnesses so it’s not clear whether takeoff or landing is a factor. If the airplane was equipped with ADS-B, the investigators will probably get an accurate picture of its flight path preceding the accident. There may be voice recordings of CTAF transmissions. Looking at the picture, you can see that this involved a steep vertical trajectory. The wreckage is in one place with no sign of horizontal energy. To conclude that as a fact, however you would have to view the accident site in person. The aircraft structure is crushed forward of the wings and the aft fuselage/tail is bent (scorpion signature). The airplane came to a rest inverted with minimal damage to wing leading edges and wings remaining mostly attached (see the symmetry of the wing struts). This suggests a near vertical impact at a low velocity consistent with a stall spin. The picture shows an inverted airplane from its left side. Note the left flap appears extended. The separated landing gear and the direction of the tail suggest some rotational energy. To visualize this, picture the airplane just before impact. I think the right main gear separated and the tail bent in the same direction. The rudder and horizontal/vertical stabilizer/ elevator have no visible damage and appear upright versus the main wreckage. You would have to inspect the failure evidence carefully to understand how that structure ended up in that state.

I investigated accidents for 20 years and can tell you it’s a very fact based, evidence centered process that utilizes elimination versus first impressions or premature conclusions. It’s really difficult to differentiate between a stall spin versus a loss of horizontal stabilizer function due to an inadvertent slip with full flaps. They both occur at relatively low airspeeds. In my experience, the NTSB is loathe to speculate on a specific cause unless they have definitive evidence. They are famous for listing probable cause due “To pilots failure to maintain control…etc. etc.).

I collaborated with the NTSB investigator on the Auburn, CA 170 B accident and we jointly wrote an article for the association magazine. We speculated that the pilot may have slipped on final with full flaps and experienced a sudden downward pitch. We again speculated that he responded with abrupt up elevator causing the wing to stall. The wreckage signature indicated a stall spin. Radar tracks indicated a high final approach. He may well have slipped to increase descent rate. He was a glider pilot for whom slipping is second nature. But there was no definitive evidence of what the pilot was seeing or doing.

I’m getting old and haven’t investigated an accident in many years so my interpretation of the picture might be totally wrong. Please feel free to correct the above analysis which is intended to help fellow pilots understand this tragedy and visualize the consequences of mishandling the controls (again speculation). My sincere condolences to the families and friends of the victims RIP.
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mmcmillan2
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Re: 170B fatal accident today

Post by mmcmillan2 »

RIP
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darhymes
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Re: 170B fatal accident today

Post by darhymes »

voorheesh wrote:I collaborated with the NTSB investigator on the Auburn, CA 170 B accident and we jointly wrote an article for the association magazine. We speculated that the pilot may have slipped on final with full flaps and experienced a sudden downward pitch. We again speculated that he responded with abrupt up elevator causing the wing to stall. The wreckage signature indicated a stall spin. Radar tracks indicated a high final approach. He may well have slipped to increase descent rate. He was a glider pilot for whom slipping is second nature. But there was no definitive evidence of what the pilot was seeing or doing.

Thank you for the detailed explanation of the accident investigation process. Too often, assumptions are made which leads to conclusions being made too early. I was also involved with the accident in Auburn, albeit in a different capacity...Bruce and Kathy were my my uncle and aunt. Together we shared a common passion for sailing, kayaking, surfing, carpentry and aviation. It wasn't until years after their passing that I discovered the Cessna 170 and ignited yet another passion that we both shared, unfortunately too late for us to share together. Seeing the images of the recent wreckage recalls the grief and sorrow that my family has dealt with over the years. Regardless of what the investigation reveals, I think we all owe it to our families to operate our aircraft as safely as possible. Please avoid slips with full flaps, use caution while slipping with partial flaps, and be aware of recognition and recovery procedures for stalls and spins in the traffic pattern. Most importantly, always fly a stabilized approach and go-around if it's not.
Dustin Rhymes
'55 170B N4410B S/N 26754
'06 G550 “The Silver Bullet”
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Richgj3
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Re: 170B fatal accident today

Post by Richgj3 »

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/ ... 106369/pdf

Interesting but would be premature to jump to conclusions before all the facts are known about the qualifications of the two occupants. Other than the obvious.
Rich Giannotti CFI-A. CFI-I SE.
1952 C170B
N2444D s/n 20596
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ghostflyer
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Re: 170B fatal accident today

Post by ghostflyer »

All very sad, but looking at the obvious it could have been preventable . unfortunately this isn’t the first time something like this has happened and it won’t be the last . the politicians will jump up and down and make a lot of noise about punitive actions etc. To me it’s about education by the FAA and other stake holders in the industry. While your dream to fly could be stopped by medical or other issues , people should be shown or informed of other safe legal avenues of flight. while I am NOT suggesting that alcohol or drugs were involved in this situation but other incidents around the world are often the stem of the bad situation is due to drugs or alcohol .
People have to think what are the possible results of my actions especially if illegal.
voorheesh
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Re: 170B fatal accident today

Post by voorheesh »

When I was with the FAA, this and similar scenarios came up from time to time. Pilots losing their medical sometimes continue to fly. Airplanes flying without annuals are not uncommon. Rarely, there is a pilot who just never bothered to get a certificate.

There was a legend down near Bakersfield of a crop duster who supposedly never had a license, or in those days, an FAA/CAA authorization for dispensing. He was never caught and the story went that he bought a helicopter in Salinas and had the seller show him how to start it and handle basic controls. He taught himself how to fly it on the way back home and was crop dusting in it the next day. They say he did a half decent job maintaining it as well. Do I believe that one? Maybe. Some of the guys swore it was true.

Ex spouses, family, neighbors, other pilots will sometimes file reports with the FAA, but to get any action, an inspector, LEO, or ATC has to witness an actual flight and identify the pilot with certainty. That inspector, unlike a law enforcement officer has no authority to stop it or do anything other than file an enforcement report which starts a lengthy legal process. Good luck with that. In California, the State Aeronautics Code (CalTrans) has laws prohibiting unlicensed operations of aircraft with criminal penalties, but enforcement of those are few and far between. Most police officers don’t have expertise in aviation and have other priorities. When you think about it there is very little in the way of policing aviators. The system is built on trust and respect. And nearly 99% of the time it works really well.

This accident is a truly sad story and the photos only tell part of it. Those guys probably had families somewhere and who knows the other disasters they left behind. Lives interrupted. Others left to pick up the pieces. They were probably “good old boys” out enjoying themselves after rationalizing their poor decisions and choices. None of us are perfect and nearly all bend the rules to some degree or another at least once in awhile, but this story goes way beyond normal carelessness. No question flying unlicensed is wrong and in my experience it’s rare and, excepting some folklore, frowned upon by nearly all aviators.
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GAHorn
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Re: 170B fatal accident today

Post by GAHorn »

I have had several instances of visiting with other pilots/owners who I was surprised had flown without a certificate. We had at one time at least one member who flew un certificated for years in Alaska before deciding to join the ranks of private pilots.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
voorheesh
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Re: 170B fatal accident today

Post by voorheesh »

Years ago, my wife was a clerk in a Supermarket and one day a customer approached her and mentioned she heard her husband (me) was a pilot, maybe in the FAA. My wife responded yes to both and this woman became emotional and begged for help. It seemed that Granpa was still flying his airplane with no medical and the family was worried he would kill himself or others. “Shouldn’t even be driving a car!” She said. So, I looked into it and found he was based at nearby Reedley, CA Airport. My boss tried to get info from the airport manager with no luck. I found out the airplane was maintained by an IA named Pat Napolitano who did an annual on my 170 one year. After learning of the problem, Pat went over to Granpa’s hangar and it went something like this: “Give me the keys!” The old fella wasn’t happy but gave Pat the keys to which Pat replied: “Anytime you want to fly this old bird, you call me and I’m coming with you to make sure you don’t do something stupid! But, I keep the keys from now on”. That was Pat. It worked. My boss who was almost never happy, agreed with the solution as well.

Some of you may have heard of Pat who was featured in a AOPA memorial story after a fatal accident in his company’s corporate Beech Staggerwing, “Queenie”. Pat worked for Mid-Continent Instruments and Avionics and traveled the country in his favorite airplane which he also maintained in superb condition. He was tragically lost over New Mexico while returning to Fresno from Kansas City a few years back. I alway thought Pat represented everything good in aviation and that story about the poor old guy who couldn’t quit flying really stood out for me and seems maybe relevant to this dilemma of when to hang it up.
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