Changing face of aviation

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Changing face of aviation

Postby ghostflyer » Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:44 am

Last night at a party a number of old soaks including me got together to discuss the changing face of flying . One question was asked “who has done a NDB approach lately” . All of us had blank looks on our faces. Then a topic on Garmin with the new auto land feature that is available on the cirrus aircraft and will be available soon to other aircraft . Yes we have had auto land on the heavies for many years but the system is complex. The new Garmin system is based in the aircraft and doesn’t require airport fixtures .
The next question was on navigation instruments .. DME is slowly [quickly] gaining cob webs , Marker beacons ? ADF nearly completely gone but thank goodness for commercial AM radio stations . VOR is slowly slipping away . INS [inertial navigation system] has totally gone . TACAN gone .
So this morning I had a look in my flight bag for the OLD tools used. My map plotter hasn’t seen the light of day for a couple of years or more , my dividers [Jimmie mattern brand] I haven’t used them for about 10 years, my protractors [ 4 of them , why??] it’s been about 4 years since I have used them , my prayer wheels I think I used them about 12 months ago for something . So where I am going on this ?? The iPad or equivalent and GPS It has taken over and all the old skills are being lost . Your W/B all done on a computer /iPad. There is a new instrument being released that does 11 functions and only cost $2000.
So where does it end , it won’t with progress but what will we have in 10 years time . All very thought provoking.
However all this gee wiz stuff has decreased my flying time and fuel consumption down to levels I didn’t think possible five years ago.
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Re: Changing face of aviation

Postby hilltop170 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:00 pm

Yep, the GPS and Fuel Flow Computer are the two things that have reduced inflight anxiety more than anything else in my opinion.

And I would not want to go back to chart/plotter/E6B and pilotage. But.....I could if I had to!

I don’t know what these new pilots will do when the lights and screens go out. Probably land at the nearest airport and clean their pants out, if they can find one, or pull the rip cord if they can’t. :lol:

I wonder if the examiners even test for manual flight planning techniques anymore?
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Re: Changing face of aviation

Postby Joe Moilanen » Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:38 pm

I hear you guys, I'm probably not as old as many on this forum (62), but I love steam gauges and sectionals. I've never been opposed to new technology but I'm acquiring an adversity to electronics just from watching the upcoming generations become totally dependent on them. It bothers me to go to a restaurant and watch a family of 5 never utter a word to each other and have their heads buried in their smart phones. I drive a log truck for a living and looking down into their cars as they pass it is unusual to see someone either not texting or at least not have their phone on their knee.

Let the EMP hit and we'll see who the survivors are!

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Re: Changing face of aviation

Postby cessna170bdriver » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:33 pm

hilltop170 wrote:...
I wonder if the examiners even test for manual flight planning techniques anymore?


Karen took a ground school this year and they are still teaching sectional charts, plotters, and E6Bs, and those things are supposedly still on the written test. It was actually kind of fun helping her with the sample problems.

Just this morning a buddy and I completed a 5-1/2 hour 170 retrieval from the east coast. I had my iPad with Stratus, and he had sectional charts (he’s only 4-1/2 years older than me). More than once he asked me where we were, and a couple of times he unfolded the sectional about the top of the climb and covered the right 2/3 of the panel about when I wanted to set cruise power. I’m fairly sure I could have eventually gotten the airplane home with a sectional chart, but it wouldn’t have been near as much fun, especially navigating around several restricted areas just outside the Washington DC SFRA; and all that in a basically unknown airplane with a compass that averaged about 30 degrees deviation. If an actual EMP happens, we’ll have a hell of a lot more to worry about than navigating our little airplanes around the country.
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Re: Changing face of aviation

Postby MoonlightVFR » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:34 pm

Big world broad topic

I am concerned about the imminent Introduction of the TESLA "cybertruck" on NOV 21.

Do not warm up to the term cyberpunk at all. What if the perception is "Too Ugly"

The aviation connection for me is will it park inside the hanger under the C170B wing?

Am going to lube my E6B . Hard to rotate
gradyb, '54 B N2890C
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Re: Changing face of aviation

Postby IA DPE » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:15 am

hilltop170 wrote:I would not want to go back to chart/plotter/E6B and pilotage. But.....I could if I had to!

I wonder if the examiners even test for manual flight planning techniques anymore?


Both the Private and Commercial Airman Certification Standards (ACSs) require demonstration of Pilotage and Dead Reckoning. I make my Applicants time between two checkpoints and figure their Groundspeed and ETE, and determine if required fuel is on board.

I encourage them to use panel mounted and hand held GPS devices if they have them as that is good CRM. I think it's good that they know both ways.
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Re: Changing face of aviation

Postby hilltop170 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:22 am

I’m really glad to hear the basics are still being tested on check rides.
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Re: Changing face of aviation

Postby bgiesbrecht » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:51 am

Being born in '81, I'm on the cusp of being a "millennial" (anything but, in practice), but started flight training in the 90's prior to GPS taking off. I've always loved paper maps and always will. Sure, I use ForeFlight for many things now...combined with an ADSB-in feed the traffic awareness is amazing as my 170 drifts around in the Socal area. But...this 37 year old still has a paper map subscription and still uses it (and not just for wrapping paper!)!
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Re: Changing face of aviation

Postby GAHorn » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:29 pm

ghostflyer wrote:.... TACAN gone ,,,,.
.


David, I trained a Marine two years ago in a transition course to a Citation-X. He was coming to us from an F-18.

He was totally at a loss when I asked him if he knew how to turn-ON the FMS. The only navigation with which he was familiar was pilotage, DR, and TACAN. Yes, TACAN is still used and was the most advanced navigation source available to him in his F18. 8O

I suspect TACAN is the reason VORs have survived this long... the military uses Air Controllers to guide them to the target where they unload the ordinance and then get a steer back home. I was shocked. (Remember when the IRAN hostage rescue attempt failed due to the loss of a single VOR in one of the helicopters? That helio had to return to the carrier and that left them one airframe short of completing the mission. (The crash during the takeoff-return-attempt didn’t help either.)

I’m still trying to find my star-chart and sextant. My Astrolabe is useless with those modern advancements....
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Re: Changing face of aviation

Postby counsellj » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:43 pm

"the military uses Air Controllers to guide them to the target where they unload the ordinance and then get a steer back home. "

George, That statement couldn't be any further from the truth. In 20 years of tactical avaiation. I have never observed this in my USAF.

I cross the country a couple times each year using nothing but sectionals. I still use sectionals in my 737 when flying through SE Alaska.
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Re: Changing face of aviation

Postby GAHorn » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:50 pm

counsellj wrote:"the military uses Air Controllers to guide them to the target where they unload the ordinance and then get a steer back home. "

George, That statement couldn't be any further from the truth. In 20 years of tactical avaiation. I have never observed this in my USAF.

I cross the country a couple times each year using nothing but sectionals. I still use sectionals in my 737 when flying through SE Alaska.


Well... he WAS a MARINE! :lol:

Seriously, the military is behind commercial and corporate aviation by full decades for most of their fleet. I flew with F18, F15, and F16 guys and was shocked at how utterly ill-equipped they were.

Seriously... you are saying you’ve never been steered to the target and back with AWACS performing C2BM? Have you got actual combat experience? (That’s not a challenge... It’s a sincere question seeking explanation.)
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Re: Changing face of aviation

Postby ghostflyer » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:42 pm

It wasn’t that long ago that we had Morse code and we had to be proficient to have a license .we also had enroute reporting every half hour. The uproar when that requirement was dropped. I still have a big poster In my office in the hangar put out by CASA [equivalent to the FAA] stating do not trust GPS it’s a gimmick and a toy .
Years ago in our cars they had a thing called a distributor and points and you mechanically timed a engine . These days my car has nothing like this ,a computer does it all for me . The days of the sectional [paper] is fast drawing to a close . I print out what my flight plan is just in case I loose my iPad in flight. I lost my sectionals and all paper work once when a window flew open in flight .
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Re: Changing face of aviation

Postby DaveF » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:44 am

Paper sectionals? No, thanks, not going back. Once upon a time, before a big trip I’d drive to the only airport near me that sold all sectionals and L-charts, buy what I needed and might need, but also find one out of stock, and maybe they’d all expire halfway through the trip, so I’d either have to buy them along the way or fly with the expired ones. Or maybe that didn’t happen but I still had to lug a bag of paper charts around. No, thanks!

Just because we can do something the hard way doesn’t mean we should. I’ve run 50 miles in a single day more than 25 times, but I still drive the 15 miles to work.
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