170 CFI in CT/NY/New England Area

[rnealon1]

Hello All,

I have been instructing my son in our 170B toward his Private Pilot and he now has all the requirements. For a number of reasons I would like to find an experienced 170 pilot that can help prepare him for a checkride. All but a few hours of his time are in our plane.

We are based at OXC (Oxford CT), but my son is in school at POU (Poughkeepsie NY).

If anyone has suggestions it will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Bob

[Richgj3]

Bob

I assume you are a CFI and are not necessarily looking for a CFI to do this, correct? Or do you need a CFI to recommend him for the ride?

[rnealon1]

Hi Rich,

I am a CFI so therefore can recommend him for the ride. Ideally I am looking for someone who has experience sending people for checkrides because I haven't done it in decades. 170 time both for insurance purposes and because I don't know if the procedures I am teaching him for short field, soft field, stalls, etc. are the same as another CFI or Examiner would expect.

I realize this is a tall order.

Thanks,

Bob

[GAHorn]

You can do this if you don’t find anyone... find any designee and ask them for a “gouge” toward a checkride. (Remember, you don’t have to have a tailwheel-current examiner or applicant to get most of this info from.)

I haven’t administered a primary applicant exam recently (my designation has expired) but this is an insight to what I might do:

Typical might be to have the applicant present all his I.D., documentation, logbooks, written results, etc., ...( Be sure the applicant has completed their IACRA) ... then conduct an oral covering the requirements of the ACS, aircraft limitations, and a few questions that can demonstrate the applicant’s reliance upon the FARs/AIM and where to find such info.... Then on to the practical. I usually give them a x-country to plan and check their planning, then observe them perform a pre-flight, ... then depart the area to capture (under the hood) the outbound course for that x-country.... when they demonstrate they can do that, we break-off the navigation, remove the hood and do the airwork and ground reference maneuvers. We then proceed to the airport... (this is an opportunity to see if they can FIND the airport selected from a random location we’ve maneuvered to) .... check his pattern entry and radio-work, and proceed to demonstrate take-offs/landings (short field, soft field, x-wind if possible) and a full-flap reject-go-around.... finishing the check-ride with an aborted take-off.

At the debrief I immediately inform them if the ride was satisfactory and ask them to help evaluate their own performance.... Or alternatively, I immediately let them know if it was UN-satisfactory, what areas need to be re-done and WHY.... asking them what they could have done better. (This enlists their own acceptance and agreement their performance was indeed unsatisfactory and allows them to address possible solutions ... rather than cause hard-feelings. I have found this to be the best way to get-beyond disappointment and plan for a successful re-take.)

Also, before the beginning of the practical, I explain to the applicant that I may stop the “ride” at any time I find a deficiency of major proportion... or I may allow the ride to continue and only address any deficiencies at the completion ...in order to allow a re-take of only those unsat items.... the choice will be mine in that regard.... HOWEVER the applicant can stop the ride at any time he/she so-wishes, but that may result in a need to re-take the entire practical test. Some examiners do this...some do not.... it’s a great “opener” for you if you solicit an examiner’s input while you are searching.

Also, if you can find a recent applicant who can relate the activities of their recent practical test, you can get an idea of how/what a particular examiner prefers.
Hope this helps. Others might also contribute.

[rnealon1]

Hi George,

Thank you that is very helpful to have a mapped out scenario.

I have met a (tailwheel qualified) DPE who is interested in helping and is willing to do a "practice" evaluation prior to the actual checkride. Issue here is insurance; he has some 170 time but not enough for the open policy. I am sure I could get him added for this purpose if it becomes necessary. Not sure of the legitimacy of this "practice" bit but he insists it is aboveboard.

The techniques I am teaching my son are based on the sparse information provided by Cessna, info from the forum, YouTube videos, divine inspiration, and trial and error. I think we have it tweaked pretty well but I need a cross-check.

I will let folks know how it unfolds.

Thanks,

Bob

[GAHorn]

Hi George,

Thank you that is very helpful to have a mapped out scenario.

I have met a (tailwheel qualified) DPE who is interested in helping and is willing to do a "practice" evaluation prior to the actual checkride. Issue here is insurance; he has some 170 time but not enough for the open policy. I am sure I could get him added for this purpose if it becomes necessary. Not sure of the legitimacy of this "practice" bit but he insists it is aboveboard.

The techniques I am teaching my son are based on the sparse information provided by Cessna, info from the forum, YouTube videos, divine inspiration, and trial and error. I think we have it tweaked pretty well but I need a cross-check.

I will let folks know how it unfolds.

Thanks,

Bob

Bob... Remember.... during a check-ride...the APPLICANT is the PIC...not the examiner. (FAR 61.47(b) The examiner shouldn’t need to be on your insurance unless your applicant is not current, unable to excersize his student pilot privileges. (A work-around tho’ should you desire him to be on your insurance is to have your underwriter/agent NAME the examiner as “addt’l named insured”.)

Another such scenario is when an applicant for a new rating has expired Flight Review status. In such case, the applicant is unqualified to act as PIC so he cannot take the exam.... the examiner has the option of acting as PIC for the purpose of the ride....but most examiners are not willing to accept that responsibility.

(Full disclosure: I am not an attorney and am not offering legal advice. I am only regurgitating what I believe is true, having only recently gone thru such a scenario. Feb last year... I was personally suffering from an expired Flight Review and rather than “waste” money on a Flight Review decided instead to obtain a new rating (which should accomplish the same)...so I enrolled in a seaplane rating course. Finishing the course, the examiner showed up and pointed out that I was not eligible to act as PIC because of the lack of Flight Review currency.... but the guy had pity for me and agreed to act as PIC for the purpose of the checkride.)
The ONLY other exemption from this Flight Review status requirement is when a Student Pilot is the applicant for a Private Pilot certificate. FAR 61.56 (g)

[rnealon1]

Hi George,

Thanks, it has been a steep learning curve to remember all the old stuff and learn all the new stuff about flight instruction. The DPE mentioned the fact that he is not PIC nor passenger for the checkride, it is only the pre-checkride flying would be an issue, whether it is with him or someone else.

As you mentioned I believe it would be relatively simple to add him to the insurance for this purpose. When I bought the plane I needed (lots of) instruction for insurance purposes (and just to learn how to fly it); the gentleman I found had only a few 170 hours but tons of Bird Dog time and he was easily approved.

Bob

[Richgj3]

Bob

Everything George says is right on. I would:
1. Get the PPL ACS and go over that with your DPE friend to advise you what he looks for

2. Get him to fly with your son regardless of what you have to do insurance wise. I assume your son has solo’d the 170 so he must be covered. If so, I believe if he is getting instruction in that airplane the insurance is in effect. But it never hurts to get the instructor named or at least added as additionally insured. Don’t take my word on this. Ask your insurance guy.

3. It is perfectly fine to ask the DPE to fly with a student who might also be his candidate on the check ride. When I was instructing for a small flight school here there was the boss (DPE) and three instructors. He and I were the only instrument instructors so he would fly with my instrument students as progress checks or if I was having trouble getting through to them. The DPE wants to pass the candidates.

4. Finally, my 170B is new to me and I only have 40 hours or so in it although I have over 4000 hrs of tailwheel including a few hundred in a converted 172. I had no issue getting insurance. A good friend here is a DPE and has a bunch of tailwheel time, if you need another. I’m at Brookhaven on LI. If I can help, let me know in a PM. I do not use my 170 for instruction because my insurance doesn’t cover that, plus I’m still learning to fly it.

[rnealon1]

Hi Rich,

Thank you for the suggestions. I have created a "Syllabus" for us which includes maneuver profiles, flight planning information, weight and balance, and the ACS. We have used the ACS as an outline for what we need to do but great idea to go over it with the DPE.

I am reaching the same conclusion as you that getting the DPE named on the insurance is the way to go, unless we stumble upon a unicorn.

My son was named on the insurance with zero time as a student and I am covered for instruction. Hopefully getting the ticket will help a lot with the insurance.

I am up to about 200 hours in the plane and I am definitely still learning to fly it!

Thanks for all the great ideas!

Bob

[JSwift]

Bob, I sent you an email regarding some folks I know in our area. By the way great work in getting your son flying in your 170. My son Mike and I have flown together a lot and he's ready to start the same journey your son sounds like he is about ready to complete.

Best wishes.

BTW, Mike and I may stop by N41 tomorrow late morning to see if folks are still out there from the camping fly-in. Let us know if you are heading that way or if a stop by KOXC is in order. Would love to meet up.

[rnealon1]

Hi Jack,

Sorry just got this I am traveling today and tomorrow, sorry to miss you. I did get your email thanks.

I originally parked at N41 and loved it there but distance/weather/field conditions became too limiting so moved to OXC which is 4 miles from home.

I didn't know there was a fly-in, I will have to have a word with the airport owner for leaving me out!

When I am back home will plan a flight up to Skylark.

Thanks,

Bob