A new toy

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A new toy

Postby ghostflyer » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:57 pm

Here in Australia we have a program for our phones and or iPad called oz runways . It has come out with a feature that has made ADS-B obsolete . Plus the cost is very reasonable . [180 dollars US ] On your iPad or phone with this program it shows rego ,height, airspeed of the aircraft ,direction and sometimes type of aircraft eg.C172 . and it’s planned route . It’s very similar to “foreflight”. I ask why spend all that money on ADS-B when some thing as simple as this is available . These days every body has a smart phone and or a iPad.
It saved the bacon of a ultra light recently as I was tracking for home and dragging my vertical fin through clouds . The rest of the aircraft was clear of cloud. I glanced at my iPad and there was another aircraft that was over laying my aircraft on the screen. I glanced up and here was a ultra light that was descending through clouds and he was looking for the airport . [ultra lights are not IFR in this country . ] I broke left sharply and descended and he passed overhead by about 10 feet. Too close . No radio chatter .he isn’t required to carry a radio.
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Re: A new toy

Postby n2582d » Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:31 pm

I broke left sharply and descended and he passed overhead by about 10 feet. Too close .

I have often wondered how that pelican missed the prop ... . It happen all so quickly , a big white mass in front and then BANG.

I un -intentionally spun a 172 and it ended up on its back flat. Motor cut out , recovery was at about 500ft .

Ghost,
If you were a cat you’d be down to six lives left! Time to retire and write your autobiography — Fate is the Hunter Down Under.
Last edited by n2582d on Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A new toy

Postby GAHorn » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:17 pm

n2582d wrote:...
I un -intentionally spun a 172 and it ended up on its back flat. Motor cut out , recovery was at about 500ft .

Ghost,
If you were a cat you’d be down to six lives left! Time to retire and write your autobiography — Fate is the Hunter Down Under”.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

That’s funny, Gary, .... but you’ve got to remember .... “on it’s back flat”.... when down-under is actually right-side-up/durty-side-down in the Northern Hemisphere... and therefore he started-out with MINUS nine-lives and working his way UP.... so he has to continue the “Ozzy and hairiest” stories... :lol:
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Re: A new toy

Postby cessna170bdriver » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:39 pm

I had an instance a couple of weeks ago where I was on VFR flight following in Class E airspace and the controller called out traffic 1 to 2 o’clock, 4-5 miles, opposite direction, same altitude (3500msl/2500agl), and not in contact with the controller. I couldn’t see the traffic from that distance, but did identify him on ADS-B and noted that his speed was about the same as mine, so I knew the closing speed was about four miles a minute. I kept switching my scan between the windshield and the screen , and when the controller called two miles I still didn’t have the traffic visually. The last time I glanced at the screen, he was 1 mile (15 seconds) and still not in sight, so I initiated a steep descending left turn. Some seconds after initiating the turn, the controller called a traffic alert in a falsetto voice, advising the same maneuver I was in the middle of. About that time Karen called “traffic in sight”, and when I turned to look I saw a 172 100-200 feet above, 1/4 to 1/2 mile, and just going out of sight behind my right wing. I think the reason neither Karen nor I got him visually was that we were actually on a collision course until I initiated the turn and established some relative movement. Without flight following, I might not have noticed the traffic in the first place, and without ADS-B, I might not have initiated the evasive maneuver in time.
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Re: A new toy

Postby Kevin Pearce » Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:40 pm

Was he not using ads-b as his position transmission?
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Re: A new toy

Postby cessna170bdriver » Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:13 am

Kevin Pearce wrote:Was he not using ads-b as his position transmission?


From the accuracy of his position I would guess he did have ADS-B out, but from his apparent lack of awareness of my presence he didn’t have ADS-B in or it wasn’t in his scan..
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Re: A new toy

Postby GAHorn » Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:52 am

I don’t know about the experience of others...but just this last week I experienced a feature I intend to investigate further: Anybody else run into this?

I programmed my ADSB-out to enable “anonymous” mode when squawking 1200.
This concept was, if I understand it correctly, developed to allow a person who wished to preserve their “privacy” to fly about in an ADSB environment without revealing their identity. An example of a concern that promoted this idea might be a businessman who operates a small plane ...(certainly this doesn’t work if IFR flying a corporate jet above FL180)... to fly to a meeting with another entity and not reveal the operation of that small plane to a competitor who might ingeniously discern the business-purpose of the flight to his own advantage. Or it might allow a pilot to visit a girlfriend and deny his wife the ability to track the flight. :roll:
In any case, I have doubts of the validity of that “anonymous” mode because I am quite certain the authorities have the ability to know which ADSB transmitter is assigned to which airframe and that national security forces can not be deprived of the identity of the operation....nor can FAA who likely has not abandoned plans for a “pay per flight” ATC system might some day be implemented.

However, a problem I’ve noticed is that my ADSB-IN receiver can no longer distinguish my own 1200-squawk from itself. There always appears to be another airplane “shadowing” my little airplane-icon moving across my track.... and last week that little guy was about 400-500 ft below me. 8O It was very distracting. {By the way, in a side-note, the altimeter setting was 30.42 which is commensurate with a lapse-rate of 500 ft. Upon landing at Blairsville, GA the friend meeting our flight handed us a print-out which showed our progress conducted completely at 6000’ when we actually cruised at 6500’. This seems to indicate the ADSB system was replicating a standard 29.92 mode C rather than the corrected 30.42 to 30.43 settings given us by ATC.}. This was very distracting throughout that flight-leg. However on subsequent legs the “shadowing aircraft directly beneath us” did not appear...perhaps because we had entered a different ATC sector..??

When squawking 1200 the little airplane icon on my moving map has ??? Displayed instead of a registration-number... and it does that with other 1200 aircraft but showing their altitude. When using an assigned txdr code we disappear as an ??? Aircraft and we are shown only as a tiny airplane icon..(this makes perfect sense because my ADSB is programmed to “ignore” my own tail number,...but when squawking 1200 it cannot distinguish it’s own squawk as being itself)....and other aircraft operating on assigned squawks show their Nnumber and altitude in conjunction with a symbol of > pointing the direction of their flight.

I find it distracting to continuously see myself as a nearby collision-hazard and (since I believe per my previous remarks I’m not anonymous to anyone important but myself) ...I plan to re-program my ADSB-Out to disable “anonymous” mode...and no longer have to deal with a ghost shadowing myself.
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Re: A new toy

Postby IP076 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:08 pm

George,

Don’t transponders typically transmit a pressure altitude? I believe it’s corrected for non standard atmosphere on the ATC end on the ground.

Regarding Oz Runways...first, I really enjoyed my Aussie experience two winters ago. Loved seeing our host country and the six weeks we spent flying fires down there was great. Can’t wait to go back sometime. But that said...I really didn’t like Oz Runways...just didn’t seem as intuitive as ForeFlight. Also, I think what you’re referencing is ADS-B IN right? Is a Oz Runways providing that data over some sort of 4g connection? Or are you required to have an on board receiver of some sort to get that functionality?
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Re: A new toy

Postby GAHorn » Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:47 pm

IP076 wrote:George,

Don’t transponders typically transmit a pressure altitude? I believe it’s corrected for non standard atmosphere on the ATC end on the ground?
....


Yes, Exactly! The txdr transmits 29.92 reports...and ATC computer then corrects it to local altimeter.

Soooo.... since ADSB-IN is merely a report of what ATC repeats back to the system... The corrected altitude should be what is shown of aircraft in-flight. (I’m guessing that since I’m broadcasting anon that atc is not correcting my own report to me.)
My own anonymous report should have reflected what ATC sees...not what my txdr is transmitting. And that IS what happens if I’m on assigned code...but not when on 1200/anonymous. Since I know who I am and since I don’t have anyone else curious about my activities that I need to hide from... to rid myself of a traffic-conflicting “shadow” ....I guess I must de-program anonymous.

I’m curious, however, why ATC reported to FliteAware the 29.92 altitude, as my friend on the ground showed us the print-out that put us at 6K’ when we were actually on assigned-code and at 6500’)

Note: The italicized comments above are an edit for clarity.
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Re: A new toy

Postby ghostflyer » Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:35 am

IPO76
Oz runways have had some major changes in the last 2 years . We now have 5g in this country and most people have a “cell” phone or a iPad . It’s great when you touch the ident button on aircraft flying in your area and it shows aircraft rego, speed, altitude and course if it has been put in the system. All the rescue helicopters are marked “rescue “ on the aircraft ident. We are in a changing environment regarding navigation . So the question is how long is compass heading and stop watch going to be taught. Gone is ADF,VOR ,TACAN and Morse code . It’s all GPS these days . No magnetic deviation , wind etc. it’s all about following the purple line . When I am flying I do eye ball the whisky compass every now and then [habit]. I do carry and use a WAC chart [sectional] , but use it for fuel consumption log. I have a fuel computer [EI] but still use planned consumption over time and checking gauges that move from empty to full with every thermal .
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Re: A new toy

Postby GAHorn » Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:37 pm

ghostflyer wrote:IPO76
Oz runways have had some major changes in the last 2 years . We now have 5g in this country and most people have a “cell” phone or a iPad . It’s great when you touch the ident button on aircraft flying in your area and it shows aircraft rego, speed, altitude and course if it has been put in the system. All the rescue helicopters are marked “rescue “ on the aircraft ident. We are in a changing environment regarding navigation . So the question is how long is compass heading and stop watch going to be taught. Gone is ADF,VOR ,TACAN and Morse code . It’s all GPS these days . No magnetic deviation , wind etc. it’s all about following the purple line . When I am flying I do eye ball the whisky compass every now and then [habit]. I do carry and use a WAC chart [sectional] , but use it for fuel consumption log. I have a fuel computer [EI] but still use planned consumption over time and checking gauges that move from empty to full with every thermal .


I’m in the throes of teaching my son toward his private pilot cert., and we’re into x-country training these days. The FIRST Dual x-country I insisted he utilize Dead Reckoning, Pilotage on the outbound leg, and then adding VOR on the return leg. On this long trip to pick up our daughter/grand-daughter I had him constantly checking the chart with landmarks, checkpoints, and VOR crossing-radials...although GPS was the primary nav. (Wait until you have a total electrical failure and see what good all those electronics will do you.). Cell service is only a back-up, IMO.

ghostflyer wrote:IPO76
.... All the rescue helicopters are marked “rescue “ on the aircraft ident. ....


Hey, THEY chose to use that thing for travel... Let THEM deal with it! I have no plans to rescue a helicopter guy from himself. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: A new toy

Postby jcmcmahon » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:45 am

cessna170bdriver wrote:I had an instance a couple of weeks ago where I was on VFR flight following in Class E airspace and the controller called out traffic 1 to 2 o’clock, 4-5 miles, opposite direction, same altitude (3500msl/2500agl), and not in contact with the controller. I couldn’t see the traffic from that distance, but did identify him on ADS-B and noted that his speed was about the same as mine, so I knew the closing speed was about four miles a minute. I kept switching my scan between the windshield and the screen , and when the controller called two miles I still didn’t have the traffic visually. The last time I glanced at the screen, he was 1 mile (15 seconds) and still not in sight, so I initiated a steep descending left turn. Some seconds after initiating the turn, the controller called a traffic alert in a falsetto voice, advising the same maneuver I was in the middle of. About that time Karen called “traffic in sight”, and when I turned to look I saw a 172 100-200 feet above, 1/4 to 1/2 mile, and just going out of sight behind my right wing. I think the reason neither Karen nor I got him visually was that we were actually on a collision course until I initiated the turn and established some relative movement. Without flight following, I might not have noticed the traffic in the first place, and without ADS-B, I might not have initiated the evasive maneuver in time.


Would this update due to the error you saw?

https://uavionix.com/tailbeacon-software-upgrade-to-ads-b-1-5-1/
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Re: A new toy

Postby IP076 » Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:31 pm

GAHorn wrote:[

I’m curious, however, why ATC reported to FliteAware the 29.92 altitude, as my friend on the ground showed us the print-out that put us at 6K’ when we were actually on assigned-code and at 6500’)

Note: The italicized comments above are an edit for clarity.


I think this might be the issue. ADS-B transmits a Pressure Altitude and as we discussed, ATC converts that to an altitude based off barometric pressure. FlightAware can be a mixed bag, some of their data isn't necessarily coming from ATC but rather a network of open source ADS-B receivers. If the data for the track you were presented came from that source, I could see how it would have reported 6,000' for the whole flight as that network likely isn't baro corrected.
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