Call Signs

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Re: Call Signs

Postby Bruce Fenstermacher » Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:03 pm

GAHorn wrote:Bruce, did you ever look into WHEN and WHO applied the single digit registration to the airframe?


The registration was acquired by the first owner of 7A about a month after it was bought from Cessna in 1949. It got Goodyear cross-wind gear at the same time. NC7A was the registration for the Goodyear blimp Puritan which had recently been decommissioned. Last I checked Goodyear sill owns 1A, 2A, 3A and 4A which you will see on their blimps.

Leroy and I got offers every now and them from people who wanted the registration number. I warned Aaron he would get the offers. Registration numbers can be worth big bucks and 7A, the registration number, may be worth as much or more than the entire airplane. I'd hoped Aaron wouldn't sell the registration. BTW 7As original registration is not available, the only other registration I'd have ever put on it.
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Re: Call Signs

Postby dstates » Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:15 pm

Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:Leroy and I got offers every now and them from people who wanted the registration number. I warned Aaron he would get the offers. Registration numbers can be worth big bucks and 7A, the registration number, may be worth as much or more than the entire airplane. I'd hoped Aaron wouldn't sell the registration. BTW 7As original registration is not available, the only other registration I'd have ever put on it.


No offense, Bruce, but it is just a number. I appreciate the nostalgia, but if I needed a new paint job and swapping tail numbers would pay for it I'd be brainstorming new numbers that meant something to me and was easy to say.

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Re: Call Signs

Postby GAHorn » Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:44 pm

dstates wrote:
Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:Leroy and I got offers every now and them from people who wanted the registration number. I warned Aaron he would get the offers. Registration numbers can be worth big bucks and 7A, the registration number, may be worth as much or more than the entire airplane. I'd hoped Aaron wouldn't sell the registration. BTW 7As original registration is not available, the only other registration I'd have ever put on it.


No offense, Bruce, but it is just a number. I appreciate the nostalgia, but if I needed a new paint job and swapping tail numbers would pay for it I'd be brainstorming new numbers that meant something to me and was easy to say.

Doug


But, DOUG...!!! How else would Bruce get ATC to carry-on a conversation with him...? :lol: :lol:
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Re: Call Signs

Postby brianm » Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:51 pm

I've always just said "Cessna 2669V". Unless it's my home airport they probably assume I'm 172, and that's close enough for me. Occasionally (usually if I'm picking up flight following from approach), they'll come back with "2669V, say type Cessna".
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Re: Call Signs

Postby 170C » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:35 pm

Don't feel bad about ATC thinking you are a 172. So many of them have no idea what a 170 is. When they ask what type Cessna I am, I just say 172 and most times they then refer to me as a Skyhawk. The Skyhawk name didn't get on 172"s until well after mine was mfg'd and if I tell them its a 172TD they are really confused :lol:
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Re: Call Signs

Postby N8293A » Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:02 am

On initial call I always just state, “Chicago center N8293A”. At busy atc radar facilities that is all that is needed to make initial contact. Since our type doesn’t have an approved, atc recognized, type name the use of November is preferred, and I always use the aircrafts full call sign on initial call up, the controller should also. The FAA 7110.65 states full call sign must be used on initial call up, then may be abbreviated on subsequent calls. After initial contact is established and when queried about my type I state that I am a “Cessna one seven zero”. I am still usually referred to as a Skyhawk, oh well I’ve been called worse.
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Re: Call Signs

Postby DaveF » Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:18 am

N8293A wrote:On initial call I always just state, “Chicago center N8293A”. At busy atc radar facilities that is all that is needed to make initial contact. Since our type doesn’t have an approved, atc recognized, type name the use of November is preferred, and I always use the aircrafts full call sign on initial call up, the controller should also. The FAA 7110.65 states full call sign must be used on initial call up, then may be abbreviated on subsequent calls. After initial contact is established and when queried about my type I state that I am a “Cessna one seven zero”. I am still usually referred to as a Skyhawk, oh well I’ve been called worse.

And there you have it, straight from the guy on the other end of the radio!
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Re: Call Signs

Postby lowNslow » Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:47 am

From the Airmans Information Manual:

Contact Procedures
Initial Contact.
The terms initial contact or initial callup means the first radio call you make to a given facility or the first call to a different controller or FSS specialist within a facility. Use the following format:
Name of the facility being called;
Your full aircraft identification as filed in the flight plan or as discussed in paragraph 4-2-4, Aircraft Call Signs;
When operating on an airport surface, state your position.
The type of message to follow or your request if it is short; and
The word “Over” if required.
EXAMPLE-

“New York Radio, Mooney Three One One Echo.”
“Columbia Ground, Cessna Three One Six Zero Foxtrot, south ramp, I-F-R Memphis.”
“Miami Center, Baron Five Six Three Hotel, request V-F-R traffic advisories.”


No need to use "November".
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Re: Call Signs

Postby N8293A » Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:34 pm

There is nothing wrong with using the manufacturers name, Cessna, Piper etc., in lieu of November. Although, many times it doesn’t add anything to enhance the controllers ability in assessing aircraft performance. That’s what you are trying to convey by using a specific approved, and recognized type name, skyhawk, baron, etc. In our case the use of Cessna adds zero useful data. We could be a Cessna 150, or a Cessna 550. The goal is to convey as much useful information with as few words as possible. Especially when making initial contact with a radar facility. Initial contact with a VFR tower, or FSS is handled differently.
If you do use Cessna on initial call up, I can guarantee the controller will assume you to be a skyhawk, unless he asks you what type of Cessna you are, ( and most won’t). Utilizing November on initial call up will usually force the controller to ask for a type, at that point you can tell him you are a Cessna one seven zero. Now when the data is entered into the computer it is accurate. You will still get called skyhawk, because most controllers won’t know the difference between a 170 and 172.
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Re: Call Signs

Postby GAHorn » Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:46 pm

170C wrote:Don't feel bad about ATC thinking you are a 172. So many of them have no idea what a 170 is. When they ask what type Cessna I am, I just say 172 and most times they then refer to me as a Skyhawk. The Skyhawk name didn't get on 172"s until well after mine was mfg'd and if I tell them its a 172TD they are really confused :lol:


Frank, what year model is your airplane? (The 172C in 1962 had the “SkyHawk” trim pkg and moniker...I own one.)
(and why isn’t your “170C” listed in the directory under your listing?)
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Re: Call Signs

Postby GAHorn » Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:11 pm

Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:Initial contact; Philly tower, Cessna N7A
Tower: Cessna N7A is it?
Me: Tower, Cessna N7A 8 miles north at 1300 would like to transition class B to Millville.
Tower: N7A say full call sign.
Me: Tower, N7A is my full call sign.
Tower: N7A roger. What type of Cessna are you?
Me:Tower, 7A is a Cessna 170.
Tower: Roger 7A, clear through the Philly Class B as requested.

Note I never dropped my full call sign N7A until tower recognized N7A as my full call sign.


Bruce, are you confident ATC dropped the “November” on subsequent contacts? The reason I ask is in your example, the controller was facing a problem of how to address N7A... as the AIM specifies: “ ATC specialists will not abbreviate call signs of air carrier or other civil aircraft having authorized call signs. ATC specialists may initiate abbreviated call signs of other aircraft by using the prefix and the last three digits/letters of the aircraft identification after communications are established.”
The ONLY way for ATC to comply with that procedure is to ALWAYS use the full call sign of Bruce’s A-model on each call. “Cessna November Seven Alpha...” even on subsequent calls.

N8293A wrote:On initial call I always just state, “Chicago center N8293A”. At busy atc radar facilities that is all that is needed to make initial contact. Since our type doesn’t have an approved, atc recognized, type name the use of November is preferred, and I always use the aircrafts full call sign on initial call up, the controller should also. The FAA 7110.65 states full call sign must be used on initial call up, then may be abbreviated on subsequent calls. After initial contact is established and when queried about my type I state that I am a “Cessna one seven zero”. I am still usually referred to as a Skyhawk, oh well I’ve been called worse.


I always make my initial call: “Houston Center, Cessna November 146 Yankee Sierra....”. They repeat back to me “N146YS say type Cessna and request”
And they seem to know I’m not a “SkyHawk” because I can’t recall any ATC specialist referring to me as one, regardless of which facility/sector I’m in. When pointing me out to other aircraft they simply refer to me as “a single Cessna”.

It’s important for those few of us that cross ADIZ’s to use “November” to identify nationality... or at least I think it’s important. I always did so but last flew internationally over a decade ago so maybe I’m out of currency of that ...

In any case, the examples of what we individually do (as posted here) are not necessarily “correct” simply because we got away with it, and that’s the point... it took my student to bring me up-to-date and make me go read that thick AIM current version... and I was curious how ATC, FAA, AIM, the so-called “authorities” came to the conclusion that a generic “Cessna” is sufficiently useful for them to disregard the nationality info on initial call....or were they just trying to point out my fallibility (more subtly than you guys.) :lol:

Here’s the AIM (section 4-2-4 para 3) on this matter of initial calls as it pertains to call signs:

Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft type, model or manufacturer's name, followed by the digits/letters of the registration number. When the aircraft manufacturer's name or model is stated, the prefix “N” is dropped; e.g., Aztec Two Four Six Four Alpha.
EXAMPLE-

Bonanza Six Five Five Golf.
Breezy Six One Three Romeo Experimental (omit “Experimental” after initial contact).
Air Taxi or other commercial operators not having FAA authorized call signs should prefix their normal identification with the phonetic word “Tango.”
EXAMPLE-

Tango Aztec Two Four Six Four Alpha.


Hey, Steve!... why does ATC want to know if it’s air taxi or “commercial”?? What special handling occurs ?
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Re: Call Signs

Postby 170C » Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:21 pm

George, you bring up an interesting point. Each time there is to be a new membership directory printed (and I do like the printed version) we are supposed to check our listing to see if its correct. I do so, but obviously failed to catch the deletion of my aircraft type in at least the past three revisions. The 2011 edition, while we were still in TX, shows a 172TD 56, but don't believe any newer ones do so. Provided Bruce and others are willing to do an updated directory in the next year or so , I'll make a change.
As you may recall it was Cleo Bickford who attached the moniker Cessna 170C to 6888A. I always though it pretty cool, but very few would recognize what a C model 170 was and technically mine is still a 172. At least controllers don't refer to me as a Chicken Hawk :lol: I don't know what year model 172 was the first to be called a Skyhawk.
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Re: Call Signs

Postby N8293A » Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:27 pm

George, frankly it doesn’t matter to ATC whether you are air taxi or not. I believe, and I am just guessing, that it may have to do with operational, and regulatory restrictions. I think, your operational parameters when operating as an air taxi are different than when just operating as a civil November call sign. You are definitely more qualified than I am in explaining those differences. As a controller we didn’t provide any different level of service between the two call signs. Unlike LN (lifeguard) call signs, which should receive priority handling, although priority handling is never specifically defined, it is up to the controllers discretion.
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Re: Call Signs

Postby GAHorn » Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:49 pm

That’s what I suspected, Steve. Yes, Pt 135 operators (and some others) have restrictions that prevent their use of certain procedures still available to Pt 91 Ops. The “Tango” is what I suspected... merely another way to “catch” them if their POI should need back-up for a violation of certificate. (One such restriction that comes to mind are “zero-zero” takeoffs. “Cruise” clearances are another on some certificates. Single-engine ops over solid undercasts, Etc.Etc ). Since the “Tango” in AIM is guidance, not regulatory, It may explain why we so rarely hear it used.
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Re: Call Signs

Postby krines » Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:41 pm

I have flown out of a class charlie airport for the last 15 years. Back when I used to fly my 170 I would check in as cessna XXXX and would only on occasion get asked what type. After many years the controllers knew me and I could tell them by recognizing their voices. One slow day I was lamenting to the controller that I felt left out as I did not have a special name so we discussed a few. I thought super chicken would work but he suggested rooster rocket so that stuck. So on rare occasions I would check in on approach Cessna XXXX and he would reply Rooster Rocket XXXX enter left downwind for runway X. I used my 170 to fly out and hunt and fish. Now I have a supercub. The controllers know what I am up to so they often ask for the fishing report or how the coyote hunting was. Not your usual class C. I always wonder what the big boys are thinking when they hear this.
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