New member , future owner.

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New member , future owner.

Postby motoadve » Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:06 pm

After flying my 182 for 10 years in the jungles of Costa Rica, backcountry in Idaho, Oregon,and Washington, finally decided to get a tail dragger.
The 182 works very well for all backcountry strips, but for gravel bars is more limited by its nose gear.

I choose the 170 (with 180HP) because sometimes need to take wife and kid, so 2 adults and one kid.
Like the lightweight controls and feel, the visibility and properly equipped it can perform really good in the backcountry.
Have not bought one yet, but as soon as I see one I like, I will buy it and start my training.
I only have had one lesson in a Piper Cub 6 years ago , so I am a total newbie flying tail draggers, fortunately Jon Counsil (Jughead) offered to tech me , so I think I cannot ask for a better instructor.

Somethings I would like to change are the fuel gauges, they just bounce even worse than in my 182, (which later I replaced the fuel senders and gauges to digital) are the ones on the 170 reliable?
I see a lot of recommendations for double puck brakes, the 170 is light and lands at slow speed, why are this brakes recommended,(I have them in my 182 and are powerful) will having too powerful brakes wont make it easier to hit the prop if too aggressive when braking? newbie when it comes to tail draggers so dont know.
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Re: New member , future owner.

Postby Richgj3 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:17 pm

My 170B has one fuel gauge that bounces but is accurate. The other one is stable but reads 1/3 lower than it really is. Pretty sure it’s been at least 30 years since they have been out if at all. The tanks do drain fairly evenly so I’ve learned what’s safe on the right tank indication. I always time on long flights and cruise on one tank or the other and use a clock instead of the gauges.

Good luck with your search and welcome.
Rich Giannotti CFI-A. CFI-I SE.
1952 C170B
N2444D s/n 20596
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Re: New member , future owner.

Postby dstates » Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:22 pm

Welcome!

I recently replaced my fuel gauges with new (mine were stuck). They do bounce quite a bit, but are fairly accurate for fuel level when the fuel is not sloshing around. I plan to add a fuel flow sensor someday. I've heard they are very accurate for calculating fuel usage.
N1235D - 1951 170A - SN: 20118
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Re: New member , future owner.

Postby GAHorn » Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:02 pm

First of all...WELCOME! GLAD YOU ARE HERE!

Don’t take my strong comments too harshly, but I feel stongly about this: The mechanical fuel gauges are Simple, and Reliable...especially when compared to most electric gauges. Keep in mind that FAA has a ridiculous standard for fuel gauges: They must read Empty when the tank is empty. 8O That’s all. They can be STUCK at the bottom of the tank...and they are “airworthy”.

Now, as regards the 170 mechanical gauges... Think about this: When they “bounce” they confirm fuel is in the tank. Electric gauges “bounce” also but are more likely to cause troubles. AND.... the original mechanical gauges are up in the wing roots where they are OUT OF SIGHT .... so don’t LOOK at them! Look at your clock and things outside your cockpit.

(Actually, I nearly got into trouble the first few days I owned the 170. I was having so much fun flying the airplane and the gauges are “out of sight...out of mind”..... that I damn near ran it out of gas the first day! But I kicked the rudder and the gauges bumped (slightly) off “E”... Nearly gave me a heart attack but that “bump” was somehow reassuring.... Boy, I stayed HIGH until I was over an airport, for sure! :oops:

Brakes: Good single-puck Clevelands are already effective enough to put this airplane on it’s nose, especially with a wheel-landing or taxying with a tailwind. The double-puck brakes are not an improvement unless you are running much larger tires than the ones listed in the Type Certificate. If you are going to run balloon tires you may find them a big help tho’.
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Re: New member , future owner.

Postby motoadve » Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:13 pm

This is also that I am not too comfortable with, the location of the gauges.
“out of sight...out of mind”
Must be a matter of learning new habits and where to look. :)

How about keeping those gauges but replacing the senders with Cies digital fuel senders? would this be of any help?
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Re: New member , future owner.

Postby DaveF » Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:23 pm

Oh oh, *someone* has spent too much time around Jughead! :lol:
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Re: New member , future owner.

Postby DaveF » Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:35 pm

Probably a subject for a separate thread, but ...

GAHorn wrote:Keep in mind that FAA has a ridiculous standard for fuel gauges: They must read Empty when the tank is empty. 8O That’s all. They can be STUCK at the bottom of the tank...and they are “airworthy”

Actually, CAR3 says that the gauges should indicate the quantity of fuel in each tank and that zero on the gauge means only unusable fuel remains. They can’t read zero all the time.

§ 3.672 Fuel quantity indicator. Means shall be provided to indicate to the flight personnel the quantity of fuel in each tank during flight. Tanks, the outlets and air spaces of which are interconnected, may be considered as one tank and need not be provided with separate indicators. Exposed sight gauges shall be so installed and guarded as to preclude the possibility of breakage or damage. Fuel quantity indicators shall be calibrated to read zero during level flight when the quantity of fuel remaining in the tank is equal to the unusable fuel supply as defined by § 3.437.
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Re: New member , future owner.

Postby daedaluscan » Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:55 pm

Welcome Larry, you will love a 170.

Honestly I use my fuel gauges to check that I did not leave a cap off more than anything else. I just do not trust that I get an accurate reading.

Installing an FP5L at this time, I hope that will be more accurate.
Charlie

1956 170B C-GDRG #27019
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Re: New member , future owner.

Postby brian.olson » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:25 pm

Larry - welcome to the group! I've enjoyed watching your videos on Youtube and I look forward to enjoying your contribution to the knowledge-share here.

I have nothing of value to add to the fuel gauge vs. fuel sender conversation. My gauges are - I believe - original and tend to bounce around though they seem more or less accurate over the course of a flight. An interesting fact, though - I have noticed that if I pay proper attention to engine leaning my fuel burn stays consistent within about .1-.2 gph. I track numbers on fuel and oil burn trends so that I can keep a keen on on anything out of whack.
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Re: New member , future owner.

Postby 170C » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:29 pm

Welcome to the association! You will find much useful information on this forum.There are a lot of highly experienced (and opinionated 8O ) members so you can get most questions answered here. (I'm opinonated myself, who isn't :lol: ).

I have owned my "56 172 TD for 31 yrs. It has the same wing tanks, etc as a 170B and I find the gauges to be pretty reliable. Yes, in rough air they bounce around, but that just confirms there is fuel in the tanks. When either gauge stops moving, even with lifting one wing or the other, that tank is almost out of fuel. As others have said, use time if you don't trust the gauges.
Good luck finding the 170 you are wanting. They are out there.
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Re: New member , future owner.

Postby johneeb » Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:11 am

Hello Larry and welcome, do you have an angle of attack system in your 182? If so which one, would you buy that one again?
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Re: New member , future owner.

Postby motoadve » Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:31 am

Yes Alpha systems AoA , first thing I did as soon as bought my CJ6 Nanchang was to install one, I will also put one on the 170 for sure.
I really like them, have more than 2,000hr using them.

If you or anyone is interested in one , let me know, send me a PM I can get you a discount.
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Re: New member , future owner.

Postby Vertical » Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:04 am

I second the value of the original gauges. Bouncy or not, once you get used to "reading between the bounces" they give direct, live feedback when pushing the limits of fuel (like you might do when trying to be as light as possible on a bar). That said, I'm currently installing an EI FP-5 to help with the overall fuel-use picture. Remember that fuel tends to move back and forth between tanks.

Bushwheels require "heavy duty" brakes per the STC. Most interpretations of Cleveland brakes (including by Cleveland i believe) is that double pucks are the heavy duty variant. That said, I have seen a few 170's with 26's and single pucks. Landing short is usually not the issue with these planes.

I'm on 29's with double pucks, and am very happy with the combination. I've never had any scares of putting it on the nose. It's way less of a risk vs something like a supercub. 180hp might have a different CG though. -Cant really speak to that. The 180 gear will make a difference as well (symmetrical vs wheels forward).
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Re: New member , future owner.

Postby edbooth » Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:24 pm

170C wrote:Welcome to the association! You will find much useful information on this forum.There are a lot of highly experienced (and opinionated 8O ) members so you can get most questions answered here. (I'm opinonated myself, who isn't :lol: ).

I have owned my "56 172 TD for 31 yrs. It has the same wing tanks, etc as a 170B and I find the gauges to be pretty reliable. Yes, in rough air they bounce around, but that just confirms there is fuel in the tanks. When either gauge stops moving, even with lifting one wing or the other, that tank is almost out of fuel. As others have said, use time if you don't trust the gauges.
Good luck finding the 170 you are wanting. They are out there.


Well, after having owned our 53 B model for over 50 years, I have run both tanks down (not at the same time) until the engine sputters. I found that I have about 20 minutes flying on either tank after the needles stop bouncing before this happens. This is at normal cruise 2450 rpm and leaned out. Probably could get a few more minutes at lower setting.
Ed Booth, 170-B and RV-7 Driver
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Re: New member , future owner.

Postby GAHorn » Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:43 pm

motoadve wrote:This is also that I am not too comfortable with, the location of the gauges.
“out of sight...out of mind”
Must be a matter of learning new habits and where to look. :)

How about keeping those gauges but replacing the senders with Cies digital fuel senders? would this be of any help?


I’m not familiar (yet) with the “Cies” but.... there are no “senders” with the original gauges. They are floats on a long wire which rotate a magnet that drag the needle on the gauge.

9153ACC1-7CC6-4C07-9247-526677ED4E08.png
In actual installation the float “arm” wire is cut and/or bent to effect calibration and facilitate installation.
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