Off Airport Landings for Insurance?

A place to relax and discuss flying topics.

Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher

Off Airport Landings for Insurance?

Postby reecewallace » Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:59 pm

I'm confirming with my insurance provider I would be covered in the case of an accident in my 170 while I was doing an off airport landing (beach, field, sandbar etc.

My insurance provider has asked I provide paperwork from my 170B's POH confirming it's ability for off airport landings. As we all know, there is no POH for the 170, and I only have the Owners Manual and I'm unable to find anything about landing it not on pavement.

My insurance provider wants paperwork confirming the 170s off-airport ability.

My provider asked:

"With respect to off-airport landing, as long as you are within the guidelines of the Pilot Operating Handbook of the aircraft. There is no exclusion in landing on a beach or grass, unless it is specifically marked not to land."

I can't find any information in my 1956 Owners Manual. Does anyone posses any paperwork which talks about off airport landings such as grass etc? I'm looking for this to have confirmation so I'll be covered.

Perhaps in the AFM (Airplane Flight Manual)? I don't have a copy of this.

Thanks
User avatar
reecewallace
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:34 am

Re: Off Airport Landings for Insurance?

Postby Bruce Fenstermacher » Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:54 am

I've never specifically looked but doubt you will find it. I think what your provider wants to know is that you plan to operate your plane within the limits of the AFM. As for grass, remind your provider that your airplane was designed and built when most airports where grass and dirt.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!

Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email:
N7A '49 170A -More original than most making folks GREEN with envy
N42532 '45 J-3 Clipped Wing Cub
User avatar
Bruce Fenstermacher
 
Posts: 9836
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Telford, PA Based at UKT

Re: Off Airport Landings for Insurance?

Postby reecewallace » Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:35 am

Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:I've never specifically looked but doubt you will find it. I think what your provider wants to know is that you plan to operate your plane within the limits of the AFM. As for grass, remind your provider that your airplane was designed and built when most airports where grass and dirt.


I sent them a reminder about grass/dirt operations. I'll see what they say. Not a great case for insuring it for off airport operations (other than common sense) because there's no data on it in either the Owners Manual or AFM
User avatar
reecewallace
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:34 am

Re: Off Airport Landings for Insurance?

Postby mit » Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:15 am

Almost every other landing I make is off airport.
Tim
User avatar
mit
 
Posts: 977
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 1:54 am
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska

Re: Off Airport Landings for Insurance?

Postby Bruce Fenstermacher » Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:15 am

reecewallace wrote:Not a great case for insuring it for off airport operations (other than common sense) because there's no data on it in either the Owners Manual or AFM


You are thinking like 2021. You are looking for something that says you can do something. Think like 1950. Have you found anything in the AFM or even the unapproved Owners manual the says the aircraft is restricted from landing on grass, dirt, rocks, snow, or ice? Is there any place in the FARs that have any restrictions? If the answer is no, then there is not restrictions. The question is, does your policy specifically restrict coverage to paved facilities?

You are going to operate your aircraft within the limits of the AFM, the only approved aircraft document the FARs and local laws. I'll bet that caveat is already in your aircraft insurance policy.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!

Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email:
N7A '49 170A -More original than most making folks GREEN with envy
N42532 '45 J-3 Clipped Wing Cub
User avatar
Bruce Fenstermacher
 
Posts: 9836
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Telford, PA Based at UKT

Re: Off Airport Landings for Insurance?

Postby GAHorn » Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:48 pm

Ask them if it’s OK to drive your car on a dirt road. Or your pickup across a pasture. Or down a beach...and where, exactly, does the automobile maker provide performance data for those purposes. (Eating cooked foods is also a thing humans eventually encountered.).

What insurance company are you dealing with Please...

While boating on Lake Austin one day, another (former) Member and I pulled into a boat slip at “The Pier” lakeside hamburger-hangout and in the next slip was a 185 on floats. About 15 mins later an Austin Police patrol-boat pulled in for a burger (and to see if underage-drinking was occurring) and I was horrified to watch my pilot/guest ask the policeman “So.. it’s OK for a float-plane to use Lake Austin?”
The cop turned around and studied the 185 ... “Not that i know of...”. Then the cop walked a short distance away and got onto his walkie-talkie and presumably called Dispatch to inquire about it. After about ten minutes he started hanging around the plane until the pilot/owner became curious and walked up to the cop and presented himself. I got nosey and walked over to be within earshot.
The cop requested, and was shown Identification/Drivers-License, Pilot certificate, and the Airworthiness certificate. He’d obviously never seen an Airworthiness Certificate before because he asked the pilot “When does this expire?”
I didn’t say anything to my guest, but since this occurred around 1986/87 .... it should be obvious I couldn’t have been more disturbed at my friend and guest that he’d provoked that unnecessary police inquiry.

Reece... don’t forget, it’s always easier to apologize than ask permission. I suggest you read your policy carefully to see if it actually describes any prohibited operations ...and if you find prohibitions that are contrry to your operations .... you might seek alternative underwriters. Asking your present underwriter such questions may provoke them to create the prohibitions they didn’t previously have. It’s already obvious your insurer wads ignorant about your C170s non-existent POH. :wink:
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
GAHorn
 
Posts: 19428
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm
Location: Spicewood (Austin), Texas

Re: Off Airport Landings for Insurance?

Postby hilltop170 » Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:15 pm

This is the only mention I could find of anything that might have to do with off-airport operation in the Owner’s Manual. As Bruce mentioned earlier, the manual sure doesn't mention anything about NOT doing any off-airport operations.

I have insurance with Avemco for several good reasons and my policies cover all-risks, no questions asked.

Let your pocketbook be your guide.

FE59DAD5-4F4F-4EC2-9331-FE3C31653F22.jpeg
Page 39 from the C170 Owner’s Manual
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
User avatar
hilltop170
 
Posts: 3337
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 6:05 pm
Location: Retired in Alaska and the Texas hill country

Re: Off Airport Landings for Insurance?

Postby n2582d » Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:54 pm

The TCDS has the Witaker tandem gear as an option as well as floats and skis. Off paved runway operations are assumed. To add to what Richard found here's several clips from the '52 Owner's Manual.
Screen Shot 2021-02-11 at 9.01.48 AM.png
Screen Shot 2021-02-11 at 9.19.49 AM.png
The insurance agent does bring up a reasonable point though. Namely, what are you using for performance data when landing or taking off on unimproved surfaces? Transport Canada's Light Aircraft Operating Tips has some helpful information for these calculations.
Gary
User avatar
n2582d
 
Posts: 2370
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2002 4:58 am
Location: Mariposa, CA

Re: Off Airport Landings for Insurance?

Postby GAHorn » Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:06 pm

hilltop170 wrote:This is the only mention I could find of anything that might have to do with off-airport operation in the Owner’s Manual. As Bruce mentioned earlier, the manual sure doesn't mention anything about NOT doing any off-airport operations.

I have insurance with Avemco for several good reasons and my policies cover all-risks, no questions asked.

Let your pocketbook be your guide.

FE59DAD5-4F4F-4EC2-9331-FE3C31653F22.jpeg


Hey Richard..!! ... maybe that’s what that leaky plug is for in the front of your crankshaft! Keeps the prop well-oiled? :?: :lol:
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
GAHorn
 
Posts: 19428
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm
Location: Spicewood (Austin), Texas

Re: Off Airport Landings for Insurance?

Postby reecewallace » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:45 pm

n2582d wrote:The TCDS has the Witaker tandem gear as an option as well as floats and skis. Off paved runway operations are assumed. To add to what Richard found here's several clips from the '52 Owner's Manual.
Screen Shot 2021-02-11 at 9.01.48 AM.png
Screen Shot 2021-02-11 at 9.19.49 AM.png
The insurance agent does bring up a reasonable point though. Namely, what are you using for performance data when landing or taking off on unimproved surfaces? Transport Canada's Light Aircraft Operating Tips has some helpful information for these calculations.


Thanks for this. I'm going to forward them this information. It may look like I have to switch insurance providers though. They can't tell me with confidence I'll be insured in the event of an accident off airport.

Another note from my Magnes insurance agent today:

"As previously advised, there is no exclusion under the policy for landing on different terrains, unless it is specifically marked not to land.

Sadly, I cannot confirm with 100% certainty which terrains would be covered or not.

In the event of a claim, it would be up to the insurance carrier and the adjustors to evaluate the situation and to determine if there is coverage."
User avatar
reecewallace
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:34 am

Re: Off Airport Landings for Insurance?

Postby GAHorn » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:51 pm

reecewallace wrote:.......

“.....In the event of a claim, it would be up to the insurance carrier and the adjustors to evaluate the situation and to determine if there is coverage."


I’d steer clear of ANY insurance representative who would suggest it would be up to some individuals judgement whether or not a particular operation were covered or not. If the aviation authorities don’t prohibit it...then it’s a LEGAL operation. There are plenty of Federal Government owned landing strips which are dirt, grass, gravel, rock and other..... plainly the FAA and the U.S. Government considers it normal operations to use them!
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
GAHorn
 
Posts: 19428
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm
Location: Spicewood (Austin), Texas

Re: Off Airport Landings for Insurance?

Postby c170b53 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:38 am

Sadly with the decrease in GA hulls so has there been a decrease in underwriters and brokers. I had to beg for insurance with my previous broker, seemed they could care less whether I got insured. When they finally responded with a quote, my insurance jumped for no reason, so although I had been with the same underwriters for 16 years, I switched. I'm now have insurance that has been made available though COPA for COPA members. Again, few brokers and even fewer underwriters means it's difficult to find alternatives. As for insurance (and coverage), generally you find out what it's worth after an accident.
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
User avatar
c170b53
 
Posts: 2210
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 8:01 pm
Location: Vancouver B.C.

Re: Off Airport Landings for Insurance?

Postby hilltop170 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:58 am

GAHorn wrote:.....Hey Richard..!! ... maybe that’s what that leaky plug is for in the front of your crankshaft! Keeps the prop well-oiled? :?: :lol:


George-
Thanks for reminding me of that, I hadn't thought of it for several years, probably from the last time you brought it up!

That crankshaft plug in the end of the tapered bushing, just inside the crankshaft behind the prop flange, which is a tapered thread pipe plug in a straight pipe thread hole and only there in an O-300 fixed pitch prop crankshaft and not there at all in the IO-360 constant speed prop installation, hasn't leaked a drop since it was properly installed with Locktite by Randy Long at Coleman, TX, no thanks to TCM at Mobile!

The crankshaft was purchased "factory new" with NO discount, from Continental for the O-300D engine with NO Locktite or ANY other locking method of ANY kind used on the pipe thread plug to lock it in place! :twisted: And their solution was to tell me to remove the crankshaft and send it back to Mobile, or fly it there, 8O , from Alaska, at my expense, and they would finish the manufacturing process that already supposedly passed their quality control inspection to start with! :twisted: I can tell you for sure a loose 3/8" threaded plug WILL oil the prop (and everything aft of it) when it is 1-1/2 threads from falling out!!!!!

From the first indication of a leak, about 10 minutes after the first takeoff of the newly rebuilt engine, until shutdown about 10 minutes later, the plug had unscrewed itself to within 1-1/2 turns of falling out, which would have opened a 3/8" hole with full oil pressure behind it.

Some of the more technical folks can tell me how long it would take to pump out 8 quarts of oil thru a 3/8" hole at 44psi. What, maybe 15-20 seconds? That would have been really good PR for Continental, and their customer service tech reps acted like it was no big deal. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Thanks again, George
Richard Pulley
2014-2016 TIC170A Past President
1951 170A, N1715D, s/n 20158, O-300D
Owned from 1973 to 1984.
Bought again in 2006 after 22 years.
It's not for sale!
User avatar
hilltop170
 
Posts: 3337
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 6:05 pm
Location: Retired in Alaska and the Texas hill country

Re: Off Airport Landings for Insurance?

Postby GAHorn » Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:44 pm

If memory serves, the O300 pumps 4 gallons per minute thru it’s system. 8O

At cruise a full oil sump would fully circulate twice each minute.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
GAHorn
 
Posts: 19428
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm
Location: Spicewood (Austin), Texas

Re: Off Airport Landings for Insurance?

Postby wabuchanan » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:17 am

Reecewallace,

Avemco.


Oh yeah, and also Avemco....
1950 170A N5776C SN:19730
User avatar
wabuchanan
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:51 am
Location: Snohomish, WA


Return to The Pilot Lounge

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 11 guests