Very informal study of 170 sales.

[Richgj3]

When I was searching for a 170B in late 2019 the ones that looked like they were worth pursuing were few and when they came up on Barnstormers they didn’t last long. Plus many were in the western part of the country and I’m on the east coast. Finally I placed a want ad on there and got lucky as an estate sale was about to happen and the man charged with selling was browsing to get an idea of prices and he was in the Chicago area. Done. Since then I watch Barnstomers and see the prices rise but the airplanes still seem to move quickly. Until now. There are 16 170s on there now.

There are 7 B models on there. Two have big engines and big prices and one is a “project” with a low price so they are not included in my average price calculation. The four left average $100K, but that’s not really accurate because one is at 80, one is at 90 one is at 100 and one is at $145K These are asking, of course. More interesting is the oldest one there is a B and it’s been on since 6/10. It’s a 54 model asking $99.9 K. Of all 170s three of the 16 were posted in July. Last one was July 3. The rest in June.

There are 7 A models. One is damaged. The average asking is $78.25K without the damaged one in the calculation

There are two 170s. One is “project” the other is asking $55K.

So, no conclusions or many conclusions.

[Vertical]

I think it's further proof that if you don't count the costs of maintenance, annuals, upgrades, storage, fuel or oil, then 170's are tremendously good investments!

-It is pretty amazing what aircraft values have done recently.

Have any of you long time owners ever seen the values decrease?

[hilltop170]

No, I haven't. Mine was freshly restored with a rebuilt engine when I bought it in 1973 for $7,500. I bought it back from a friend in 2006 for $12,500, what I sold it for in 1984 but nothing had been done to it since I sold it to him. I would be lucky to sell it today for what I have in it, just counting improvements, and not including maintenance and upkeep.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

There was a short period of time when prices ran pretty flat and depending on aircraft even went down a little. I'm talking all aircraft not specifically 170s.

I can't imagine the current high prices will stick. I also don't want to think of the collapsed economy that will bring them down. But I think it more likely prices will come down than they stay at the current level.

[daedaluscan]

I can't imagine the current high prices will stick. I also don't want to think of the collapsed economy that will bring them down. But I think it more likely prices will come down than they stay at the current level.

I have to agree, housing and toys seem crazy high right now. Lots of potential pain between here and the (inevitable?) correction.

I am in the minority who wish the prices had not risen. I never intend to sell my 170, but pass it on to my son. That means that the high value means high insurance rates, and I am not even sure I could replace it for its current (inflated) insured value.

The damage high house prices have done to society are another depressing topic. Tough for the next generation.

[falco]

My airplane is now worth more money than I have put into it. First time in 23 years that's happened.
My current hull insurance will now only cover about half what I can think I could sell it for.
Avgas is now $7.80/gallon at my home field.

No. It's not for sale.

[cessna170bdriver]

I think that the fact that the number of 170’s on the market has risen is that owners are trying to cash in on the current market. The fact that they aren’t selling quickly is just a dose of reality.

[GAHorn]

I think that the fact that the number of 170’s on the market has risen is that owners are trying to cash in on the current market. The fact that they aren’t selling quickly is just a dose of reality.

Yep. I agree.

A competing insurance underwriter has contacted me in an effort to become my insurer (they having noticed my coverage expires soon) and I provided them the data needed for them. I paid about $40K 3+ years ago for a pretty nice 172 (and told them so, and for-which it is presently insured) which they were adamant they would not insure for less than $97,500 hull value.
This is a different attitude than I’ve experienced in over 40 years of insuring personal aircraft….the insurance agent insisting upon a higher hull value than the owner desires.
(I have a personal friend who lost his airplane in a take-off accident and his insurer claimed the airplane was over-insured and argued against settlement. He had it insured for $80K and the insurance co. argued it was only worth $45K. Beryl threatened to hire an attorney with the argument that the underwriter was quite happy to accept a premium-payment for the higher hull-value…and therefore owed him the full declared value… and, of course, Beryl won the argument.)

I am concerned that insurance underwriters are going to force higher declared-value-premiums for aircraft which will not bring these newly-declared values in the marketplace. A period of “deflation” and extremely-high interest-rates such as occurred in the mid ‘80s will hurt, but that is a distinct possibility.

[flaglor]

A good 170 cost between $35-$50k for years. There wasn’t enough demand to run prices up. Now the market has changed and demand is up. It will stay high because the 180 market has gone through the roof, and there aren’t enough planes to fill the demand. Most of us just aren’t going to pay over $200k for a 180 unless its a working airplane that we need to make our living. I sold my 180 tor $65k, 7 years ago, and thought I did good. They have doubled or more in value, and won’t return. I recently thought of selling my real nice Bonanza and adding $100,000 (!!) to purchase another 180. I came to my senses. It just doesn’t make sense.

I recently did a major oh on my 170B’s engine. $22,000 for parts alone, and 6 months for machine work. A good complete 170 is worth the money because the parts, labor, and time involved are more than the purchase price. I am very familiar with one of the A models on Barnstormers right now. The owner, my friend, paid to get it overhauled and fixed it up nice. It just costs a whole lot of money. There are no bargains. You pay up front, or over time.

[Vertical]

I've always considered PA-18 Supercub values to be the ideal model. One of the few aircraft whose value seems to stay relatively parallel to its condition and modifications without a hard ceiling. Rag tag 90 horse cub? -40k. Rebuilt 160 horse cub with smart mods? -220k+.

I don't see 170 prices staying quite as high as they are, and the build up of inventory already shows the softening. However it would be great to remove the value ceiling so that really nice examples or ones that have received valuable (expensive) modifications could command premiums beyond an arbitrary market cap. When I was shopping, this cap for an 0300 B model was about 50-60k no matter how nice it was. Now it's well over 100k, with big engine conversions hitting 250k.

A larger value gradient could help open a better future for 170's since it would reward owners who put $ into their planes. It might even loosen up opportunities in the parts and modifications markets.

[Ryan Smith]

I’ve got a complicated history with my airplane.

My grandfather purchased it in October 1986 for $8900. When he passed, he left it to my father who sold it in 2008 for $34,500. In June 2012 it was listed for $42,000 and sold for $35,500. Minimal improvements were made to the airplane since then and I finally bought it three weeks ago for $42,000.

Private sale, so it wasn’t put on the market for unrealistic money, but I was told the price, and money exchanged hands immediately.

There are much nicer airplanes out there, but there are also much worse airplanes, too.

YMMV

[johneeb]

Congrats on the purchase Ryan, Can't tell you how much you are going to enjoy it as you have already experienced that.
Johneb

[cessna170bdriver]

Congratulations Ryan! I know you’ve been looking forward to becoming the official caretaker of that airplane for a long time.

[GAHorn]

That’s Good News, Ryan! Congrats!

I don’t consider the Super Cubs to be any better than several Cessna models for bush-work or any other work. They simply have a good combination of power vs weight which was developed out of the sorry construction designs of the earlier Cub series. The Cessna 180 and 185 airplanes were the result of similar progressions over at Cessna, but with a much better construction/design. (The little Cubs have a fond/nostalgic following ….and I am not criticizing that. I love the sight of a J-3 or any of the others, and the short-wing Pipers are fun returns to prior times. But their designs actually suck, IMO.
Example: The J3 has lousy wt/bal and must be soloed from the back seat. The crashworthiness is one of the worst, with a fuel tank in the lap of the fwd occupant, and seat structures than can impale your bottom-end in a hard landing. Horrible heel brakes. “Barely able to Kill you… but does so painfully.”

Their popularity is a nostalgic one, at least for me. I much more admire the C-120, C-140, C-150 as trainers and runabouts.

My preferences: Cessna Singles. Piper Twins, Beech Anything (as long as it doesn't start with “D”. (Debonairs are cheap, downgraded Bonanzas. Dukes are road hogs, maintenance hogs, and hangar queens. Duchesses are flimsy twin-engined developments from airframes which were fine for economy-Musketeers/Sierras.) YMMV

[c170b53]

Don’t hold back George
I haven't the knowledge to know what’s good , better or best but supercubs do command a price premium and owners are very fond of their plane#. Kind of like us, 170 guys.