Simple Green

N2865C · Post by **N2865C** » Wed May 25, 2005 5:56 pm

Here is the response from Simple Green.........
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Dear Mr. Craver:

Thank goodness for people like you, who take the one extra step to ask the source! Since I can't post this response on the Cessna 170 web site, I would appreciate it if you would.

If Gahorn had contacted us, we could have shared with him the full testing data on Extreme Simple Green Aircraft & Precision Cleaner ~ which includes the entire Mil-Spec test results in addition to the Boeing D6-17487 revP test results. When we first developed Extreme Simple Green, we of course put it through the mil-spec testing process. Unfortunately, we failed in two areas: 1) Low-embrittling cadmium plate corrosion [we failed at dilution but passed at full-strength] and 2) polyimide wire insulation. Therefore, we are not marketing this product to the military or as a mil-spec-compliant product.

However, there are a zillion non-mil-spec cleaners on the market and the fact that the product passed Boeing D6-17487 revP showed us that we had a terrific product to market to general and commercial aviation. [*Please note that Boeing D6-17487 revP is the most current Boeing spec for "Exterior and General Cleaners and Liquid Waxes, Polishes and Polishing Compounds." The testing covers Sandwich Corrosion of bare and clad 7075-T6 aluminum, Acrylic crazing, Paint softening, and Hydrogen embrittlement - - we have further, more extensive Sandwich Corrosion testing done in the mil-spec testing which shows conformance - copy is attached to this email.] I do not know where Gahorn comes up with his comments about using Extreme Simple Green as a cleaner only for "runways, rubber parts, and toilets and waste tanks", but if he had simply contacted us, we would have shared our data. << insert/edit by gahorn: Perhaps she should have read the Boeing spec she quotes and she'd have known where he came up with that? ..and , he HAD contacted them previously and they failed to respond, perhaps because they were busy recovering from their first failed Mil-Spec test on corrosion and wiring. end/edit>>
We are sincerely glad that you like Extreme Simple Green Aircraft & Precision Cleaner, and we truly appreciate the opportunity to correct the misinformation that Gahorn posted on your Cessna 170 chat site.

If Gahorn, or anyone else on your chat, would like a sample of the product, please ask him to contact us directly at cchapin@simplegreen.com or simply fill out the request form on our web site at http://www.simplegreen.com

Sincerely,
Carol Chapin
Environmental & Regulatory Director
Sunshine Makers, Inc. / SIMPLE GREEN

N2865C · Post by **N2865C** » Wed May 25, 2005 7:10 pm

Follow up from Simple Green........
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Carol Chapin <cchapin@simplegreen.com> wrote:
Thank YOU for the opportunity to put correct info out there. I only wish that the Boeing/Mil-Spec document that I had attached to the email I sent you could be posted. You are welcome to tell your fellow 170-ers that if they want a copy emailed to them, they simply need to email me the request at cchapin@simplegreen.com.

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Wed May 25, 2005 10:59 pm

Post by **GAHorn** » Wed May 25, 2005 11:12 pm

I'm not privy to the correspondence which transpired between Mr. Craver and Ms. Chapin, so I cannot comment on why Ms. Chapin seems "put out" with me (gahorn) for simply posting my interpretation of Boeing Spec. D6-17487P.
As I mentioned earlier, I am in possession of that document and I have read it, (and I'll happily email it to anyone wishing to also read it.) Contrary to Ms. Chapin's claim, that Boeing document is NOT titled ""Exterior and General Cleaners and Liquid Waxes, Polishes and Polishing Compounds. The testing covers Sandwich Corrosion of bare and clad 7075-T6 aluminum, Acrylic crazing, Paint softening, and Hydrogen embrittlement ..."
In actual fact, it is entitled, "Evaluation of Airplane Maintenance Materials". Perhaps she was confused by a section of that document which lays out the tests performed on the various materials to which the Boeing Spec. addresses itself. One column actually IS entitled ""Exterior and General Cleaners and Liquid Waxes, Polishes and Polishing Compounds." Unfortunately for Ms. Chapin, that entire column delineating the tests to be performed on ""Exterior and General Cleaners and Liquid Waxes, Polishes and Polishing Compounds." ....is BLANK....except for certain tests on 7075 sandwich, acrylic crazing, hydrogen embrittlement, and paint softening! And even THOSE test procedures are only called for on "solvent" cleaners. There are no tests listed within that specification for "general cleaners" use on 2024 aluminum such as our airplanes are made of. My point was ...that for a company to make a claim that one's products passes a certain "test"....is of no value if that test does not provide a procedure for the intended purpose of the product...namely, for the general purpose of washing airplanes made of common 2024 aluminum.
The Boeing Spec. quoted however, DOES test for "paint strippers, runway and facility de-icers, and waste tank cleaners" and lots of other things such as toilet fluids. But again, if I am reading the specification correctly, under the column of tests performed on general cleaners, the particular test required of such cleaners, notably "Section8" does not apply to use on 2024 aluminum.
I'm sorry Ms. Chapin seems upset with me, but....
Well over one year ago I personally contacted the makers of Simple Green (marketing department) and requested their corporate response to the U.S. Air Force's removal of their product from the list of approved airplane cleaning materials. I was promised a response and did not receive one. I then followed up with a written letter, to which I also have never recieved any response. Also, there is no reason Ms. Chapin cannot log on, and directly access this forum and this discussion thread. I intend to send this mention to her.
Do not misunderstand. I do not have an axe to grind with the makers of Simple Green, I merely hoped for an explanation for their public claim that their product would be re-evaluated and "corrected" to meet requirements for approval for use on aircraft. I still hope for a good, general purpose cleaner we can use on our airplanes. I'm actually rooting for the makers of any product that can meet our needs. Having read in this forum that a new product was on the market, and visiting their website and seeing their clear implication that their new product "Extreme Simple Green" was worthy of aircraft use by their advertisement that it met a Boeing Airplane Company Specification, ...I merely followed up in due diligence to determine exactly WHICH purposes/use to which their product may be put and meet with the approval of Boeing. As I said, ...if I read the Boeing Spec correctly...Extreme Simple Green may safely be used on rubber, runways, and waste tanks......but the Boeing Spec does NOT make any claim it will be safe for 2024 aluminum of which most airplanes are constructed. IMHO

Post by **GAHorn** » Wed May 25, 2005 11:42 pm

The following email was sent to Ms. Chapin. Let's hope I'm simply wrong regarding the Boeing Spec's meaning.

"Dear Ms. Chapin,
I am George Horn, the Parts and Maintenance coordinator for the Int'l Cessna 170 Assoc., and the moderator of our discussion forums at our website http://www.cessna170.org .
I understand that certain correspondence has transpired (perhaps out of context) between yourself and one of our forum participants, a Mr. Craver, who has recently posted commentary attributed to yourself, regarding recent educational investigations inititated by myself regarding your company's new product "Extreme Simple Green".
In the course of informal, online discussions, it became apparent that your company is marketing the new product as one worthy of aircraft use, and supporting evidence of airworthiness is offered on your company website in the form of claims that the product meets Boeing Spec. D6-17487P. This type of statement, to the casual observer, appears to be a form of "endorsement" by the Boeing company, and would thereby carry great weight with the ordinary aircraft owner. I'm sure that fact was in the mind of your company's marketing department when the ad was posted at your company's website.
Accordingly, in my capacity as Parts and Maintenance Coordinator for our aircraft "type club"...I obtained a copy of the Boeing Spec. and familiarized myself with it as best as my poor powers may allow. The best interpretation that I can observe is that the Boeing Spec. tests many different types of products for various uses, and that it tests "General Cleaners" and such related products only on certain materials, and for certain purposes. It does not appear, according to the Boeing Spec, to test products such as "Extreme Simple Green" for use on 2024 aluminum alloy such as most airplanes, including Cessna 170's, are constructed. My message, open for our members to read, pointed that interpretation out. (see copy below)
Mr. Craver has posted your comments which seem somewhat derogatory towards me, and I am hopeful that is/was merely an unfortunate choice of words, and I wish to afford you the opportunity to further pursue the line of thought involved in determining whether or not Extreme Simple Green is suitable and approved by the Boeing Spec D6-17487P for use on 2024 aluminum.
Thank you for your response. (And by the way, contrary to your assumption, indeed I did request information from your company regarding it's products and never received a response, and I also very recently (last week) also requested a sample of your product for evaluation. I'm sure your marketing department can locate my order for you.)
Sincerely,
George Horn
Parts/MX TIC170A"

Post by **GAHorn** » Thu May 26, 2005 12:06 am

And the beat goes ooon......and the beat goes on....

John got a response from Ms. Chapin that included the test results from an independent laboratory which added 2024 aluminum to the testing (even though the Boeing Spec did not call for that testing). The results provided by the laboratory, SMI, Inc., of Miami, indicate that the immersion corrosion tests normally called for on 7075 was also run on 2024, with similar results....a Pass!
Yaaay! (They should indicate that in their advertising. IMHO)

I've sent the following to Ms. Chapin:

"Dear Ms. Chapin,
Subsequent to my last correspondence to you (within the hour actually)...Mr John Craver emailed me a copy of the report sent to him by yourself.
That report, of the independent laboratory which tested the product, indicates that, although the Boeing Spec does not call for testing upon 2024 aluminum....that the product was indeed so tested ..and the results were a PASS! (happy, happy, joy, joy, happy, happy, joy...)
I've so corrected the record at our forums, and I'll expect our members to eagerly use and hopefully endorse your company's product, Extreme Simple Green.
Thank you for sending the laboratory report.
Very best regards
George Horn
Parts/Mx TIC170A"

cchapin · Post by **cchapin** » Thu May 26, 2005 12:12 am

Dear Gahorn:

If I seemed "put out" it is only because you did not contact us for clarification of your information before posting to your chat group. We have been exceedingly careful with this product to make sure that it is safe to use on aircraft. We have never implied that Boeing endorses the product - we simply list the spec with which it complies.

As stated earlier, anyone and everyone may contact me via email at cchapin@simplegreen.com for an email copy of the Boeing D6-17487 Revision P document AND the Mil-Prf 87937D document. I don't know what document you are looking at, but the test results that I received back from Scientific Material International, Inc. (the only lab in the country authorized to do testing for the military) calls Boeing D6-17487 Revision P "Exterior and General Cleaners and Liquid Waxes, Polishes and Polishing Compounds." We have even filed these test results with several locations of Boeing and no one has felt that they were incorrect or mis-named.

The Total Immersion Corrion testing in the Mil-Prf test shows conformance to ASTM F 483 testing on: Magnesium (AZ 31B-H24) AMS 4377 surface treatment per SAE AMS-M-3171, Ty !!! // Aluminum SAE AMS-QQ-A-250/4, T3 surface treatment per MIL-A-8625, Type 1, Class 1 // Aluminum, SAE AMS-QQ-A-250/4, Bare T3 Alloy // Aluminum, SAE AMS-QQ-A-250/12, Bare T6 Alloy // Titanium, SAE AMS-T-9046, 6AI-4V C1 III, Comp. C // Steel, AMS 5046, Grade 1020 // Steel, 410 SS, Silver Plated per SAE AMS 2401 ~and~ conformance to Sandwich Corrosion testing on 2024-T3 Bare Anodized // 2024-T3 Alclad // 7075-T6 Bare Anodized // and 7075-T6 Alclad.

I see your very recent email to me and I will send the full document to you. As regards your assertion that you contacted us but received no reply, I do see your name and email address on the database that I have kept for the past 4+ years of folks who have contacted us about use on aircraft - I show "Mr. George Horn georgehorn@XXX.com" which does not match the email address that you just contacted me from, and which does not list a phone number or physical address in the database. Any response I made to you would have been to the "@XXX.com" address. I kept all of these email and snail-mail addresses of folks that I corresponded with so that when our aircraft-compliant product was ready, I could, and did, send the full Boeing and Mil-Prf data, plus MSDS, plus sample to each and every person that had contacted us over the years. I am very sorry that I missed you.

I look forward to sharing our data with you and the rest of your 170 group. By the way, your chat site is super-easy to use and navigate!!

Thanks,
Carol Chapin
Environmental & Regulatory Director
Sunshine Makers, Inc. / SIMPLE GREEN

(PS- We are currently having Extreme Simple Green tested for compliance with the Pratt Whitney PWA 36604 rev. C [Engine Cleaning]Stress Corrosion, Stock Loss, and Hot Corrosion specs. Since I now have a login on your site, I'll be sure to post results when I have them.)

N2865C · Post by **N2865C** » Thu May 26, 2005 12:14 am

gahorn wrote:I'm not privy to the correspondence which transpired between Mr. Craver and Ms. Chapin, so I cannot comment on why Ms. Chapin seems "put out" with me (gahorn) for simply posting my interpretation of Boeing Spec. D6-17487P.

In the interest of full disclosure, here is what my correspondence said.

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Comment/Questions: I recently tried your product on my aircraft and was very impressed with it's cleaning ability. The following was a post on the Cessna 170 web site following my compliments of your product. It would be great to get your company's response.

(Georges first post here)

The entire thread can be seen here.
http://www.cessna170.org/phpBB2/viewtop ... 0211#20211

Thank you

John Craver

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I think I'll stay on the sidelines of this one

jc

Post by **GAHorn** » Thu May 26, 2005 12:23 am

No harm, No foul!, John! THANKS for obtaining the report and forwarding it on to me. It helped settle the question whether or not the product was useful on our airplanes.
Again, Thanks! (I need all the help I can get!)

N1478D · Post by **N1478D** » Thu May 26, 2005 2:43 am

If they would have named it SIMPLE RED - A SLOW CLEANER, George wouldn't have had any problems with it!

But since it works so fast, they named it GREEN George!

Post by **GAHorn** » Thu May 26, 2005 3:06 am

If they'd SIMPLY named it RED then we'd have had the answer MUCH FASTER!

cessna170bdriver · Post by **cessna170bdriver** » Thu May 26, 2005 3:23 am

I recieved my free sample of Extreme Simple Green last week, but I wanted to let this thread play out more before I used it. Well, the fact that the independent lab said it was OK on 2024 is good enough for me.

I stopped by the airport on the way home this evening and tried it out. I have to say I am impressed! In addition to the removal of the usual oil and soot on the belly, it easily removed some oil stains that have been there for years that up until now only polishing compound would touch. I chose the method of squirting a bit on a rag and wiping. I guess the proof of the pudding will be that the paint (21-year old Imron) is still there when I go back.

Miles

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:22 am

How does the new stuff compare with the original Simple Green for cleaning power? Or am I the only one open-minded enough/brave enough/foolish enough (take your pick) to use (or to admit using) the original Simple Green on his airplane?

Eric

Haydon · Post by **Haydon** » Thu May 26, 2005 6:01 pm

Thanx to all for following up on this issue. I am sure glad the new "Extreme Simple Green" is color coded. What shade of purple should I look for, when I mix it with the MMO? Automatic Belly Cleaner!!!

Yes, I do the mantra......

3958v · Post by **3958v** » Thu May 26, 2005 11:17 pm

Eric when I first got my plane I used it on the belly for a year or two until I read something about it causing the aluminum to get brittle. Since then I have tried not to do hard landings and have not had any cracks. Probably best not to use it but I doubt its going to make your plane look like a piece of shatered glass. Bill K