Cessna 170 Resale values

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Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby GAHorn » Thu May 28, 2009 5:09 am

This chart was produced in the year 2000. It can be seen that in the ten years from 1990 to 2000 that 170 prices increased by about $10K. Another ten years has now passed and it appears that another $10K may be added for airplanes in good condition. Who says airplanes are not good values?
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby timberstone » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:44 am

True, Cessna 170's may be useful and appealing aircraft, but only if their values as an "investment" are compared to recent 401k's that went south, can they also be considered a good "investment." What follows is a sketchy outline from someone who has been close to the market, for the last 9 months, looking to purchase a good Cessna 170.
The price digest of historical sales which was quoted, should be cautiously applied when projected forward for dates in the future, particularly in the economic environment since September 16, 2008. Since then, the prices appear to have retreated markedly, or at the very best stagnated. The sample chart is possibly an accurate reflection of price trends, but not since the crash 9 months ago. Since then, there are many aircraft which have been sitting on the sale sites (Barnstormers/ Trade-a-plane) much longer than expected, or have been posted recurrently, or have been withdrawn from the market altogether. The 170's and 170A's seem to have much softer prices than 170B's, but there have been less than a handful of sales of all models. There are many sellers who are holding onto their aircraft, just waiting for the market to turn, but who have never had even a serious "nibble" at their asking price. The actual buyers are scarce.
If anyone has information to the contrary, then please come forward, but since the beginning of this calendar year the only 170B's that have been known to actually sell were for less than $30,000. (This is notwithstanding one example which was "traded" for an apparent higher price.) When you figure in the fixed costs of storage, insurance, maintenance, taxes, and licensing with any operating costs, these aircraft are not valid as purely investments. Their value must come from usefulness, revenue generation or as sentimental objects -- not investments.
There may have been times, decades in the past, when the general aviation market value increased with inflation, and buoyed the market for Cessna 170's along with it. However the sheer fact of aging of these models (all of which are now older than 50 years) has created such a wide variance in the qualities of individual examples, that it is too difficult to make overall statements of value without becoming anecdotal. This is true the same for all "classic and antique" aircraft, autos, art objects, etc. Each individual craft must be carefully examined as to quality and airworthiness in order to arrive at its own value, and those values are less and less dependent upon the subjective qualities that owners hold of these classic aircraft.
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby GAHorn » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:39 pm

".... aircraft are not valid as purely investments......"

Oh, yeah? Have you tried owning a BOAT? How much did THAT appreciate? :lol:
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby 170C » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:37 pm

I suspect that each airplane wilo bring a price based on its individual condition, equipment, etc. That would be true today and would have been so last year, 5 yrs ago or 10 yrs ago. In today's economic times I would be surprised to find a 170 or most other older aircraft bringing close to what they might have brought 18 months ago. This is just a guess on my part as I haven't been watching prices that closely. I doubt my plane would bring what it might have 18 months ago. I know of a really clean early 1960's (62 I think) Comanche 250 at my airport with a fresh overhauled engine & prop, nice paint & interior with a good panel that the owner was offered $39K for recently. He obviously turned down the offer. I suspect he is looking to get in the mid $50's as a bottom price. I don't know much about Comanche's except they are a good cross country planes, but wouldn't know what the market is for them at this time. I have long labored under the impression (maybe false) that my investment in my plane was holding up better than my 401k. :?: :?:
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby 1SeventyZ » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:35 pm

As someone who bought a 170B at what I now estimate to be the peak high valuation period for the type, it's sort of a sick feeling to see the prices they are now going for.

Oh well. If I'm stuck with it, so be it. I love the old bird and I have fun flying it. Things could be worse. ;)
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby GAHorn » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:53 pm

170C wrote:... I know of a really clean early 1960's (62 I think) Comanche 250 at my airport with a fresh overhauled engine & prop, nice paint & interior with a good panel that the owner was offered $39K for recently. He obviously turned down the offer. ...



The fleet-average value is not determined by a low-bid price on any particular airframe, especially one which was refused. (Even if somone makes a ridiculous offer that is accepted by an anxious-seller does not alter the actual value of the fleet.) But it may create that impression. During perceived hardtimes there are lots of "trollers" who hope to bottom-fish and who will make low-offers hoping to get a bite. And, occasionally it works, but that does not truly alter the value of the fleet.

A corollary is the present automobile industry. The mfr's are bankrupt and the economy is in the trash, and dealer-lots are overflowing with unsold cars. But the real selling-price of a Ford F-150 is still in the $25K-$30K range despite the occasional loss-leader-advert that offers a plain-vanilla at "Only $18, 989!".... (plus tax, title, freight, and dealer-prep, of course.) :evil: (I always thought that $25K-plus for a pickup truck was ridiculous robbery anyway. Jesse James would at least hold a gun on you while he robbed you!)

A well-maintained, average-equipped C-170-B with a mid-time engine still trades owners at around $40-$45K , and that's a bargain for a certificated, four-place, family-plane that does everything a $265K Cessna 172 will do, ....except it does it with style.
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby MoonlightVFR » Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:15 pm

I have a question about Cessna 170 Resale Values.

Is there a valid authoritarian source for valuation of used G A aircraft?

If so does this source have a vested interest in researching and publishing the stated dollar values?



I pay personal property taxes on A/C to a county that arbitarily post a value on my Cessna 170B , 1954 model.
They know airplanes so how do they derive a tax basis value.

I have a residence in the county however I have not operated the A/C in said county since 1979.

I want relief.


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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby hilltop170 » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:01 pm

Gradyb-
Anchorage has a personal property tax on aircraft but they can only charge it if you store or operate the aircraft in the municipality. They will send a bill every year and if you voluntarily pay the tax, they send another bill next year. BUT, if the plane is not stored or operated in the municipality, all you have to do is write on the next bill, "This aircraft is not stored in nor operated in the Municipality of Anchorage any longer" and they will not expect any further payment. If they later catch the plane in the muni without you first notifying them it has returned, they will back-charge from the last paid year plus penalties and interest so be careful. The rules might be different where you are but I don't see how you can be taxed for something out of their jurisdiction. Maybe you could get a refund from 1979. Yeah, right.

After moving the 170 to Texas from Alaska, another tax district up here, the Mat-Su Borough, told me they were going to report my moving the airplane to Texas so Texas could tax it. I told them go ahead. Luckily I knew only counties have the personal property tax in Texas and I didn't tell them which county it was moved to. The county it was moved to does not collect tax on aircraft. Your tax dollars at work for you.
Last edited by hilltop170 on Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby n3437d » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:07 am

My $0.02 worth - having been in the property tax business for 38 years - now retired thank Gawd!! certified in NY< CO, ID, NV and CA I can only speak for these states - but its not as simple and hiding the truth. If a taxing jurisdiction is worth its salt and they go the job they get paid to do - there are numerous ways to find out which a/c are flying or hangared in their jurisdiction.

I pay $22 per year to register my plane in ID even though it is no loger based there. But I feel the tremedous support GA has in Idaho it would be worth 100 times that.

Here in NV a value is predicated upon a personal Property depreciation schedule - aircraft are listed on a 20 year basis - currently my 1955 170 is listed at $10,000 and with the tax levying districts this amounts to an annual charge of about $50/year still not bad -

The important thing to remember is how the craft is valued - market value vs depreciated value and the next important item and the critical ones are the tax levy districts where your plane is located. Rule of thumb, the largest amount will go to the school district.

And thats all I know -- just pray you do not live in CA

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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby hilltop170 » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:35 am

Joel-
I'm not advocating hiding from the tax man. I edited my previous post to reflect that. I pay my fair share of airplane taxes every year in Anchorage but if the plane ever leaves for good, that's all I'm willing to pay. We may not have all the info to see what's really happening there but if the plane is not in the district, no tax should be due on it just because a guy happens to own some other property there.
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby futr_alaskaflyer » Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:17 pm

n3437d wrote:
The important thing to remember is how the craft is valued - market value vs depreciated value and the next important item and the critical ones are the tax levy districts where your plane is located. Rule of thumb, the largest amount will go to the school district.

And thats all I know -- just pray you do not live in CA

Joel
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I believe that California also uses a basis for their assessed value, though it is reset to market value if the property changes hands. Tax rate of ~1.25% of value, which would be $400 - $500/year for a typical 170. Of course that is subject to correction by more knowledgeable posters...

Muni of Anchorage charges flat $75/year for SE planes. No state registration.
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby GAHorn » Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:52 pm

MoonlightVFR wrote:I have a question about Cessna 170 Resale Values.

Is there a valid authoritarian source for valuation of used G A aircraft?

If so does this source have a vested interest in researching and publishing the stated dollar values? ...


Rightly or wrongly, the de-facto "authority" used by most taxing authorities is: http://www.aircraftbluebook.com/
Having once worked for the State of Texas, Comptroller of Public Accounts, on this very issue, (1990-1992) I can say that Texas assessed a "Sale and/or Use-Tax" on each aircraft sale which occured or appeared to occur in Texas based upon FAA registrations. The value of the transaction was determined by use of the Bluebook of Aircraft Values, unless the new owner could prove a different actual price was paid.
Where is your aircraft kept and where is it's registered address.
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby MoonlightVFR » Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:47 pm

My A/C is kept at St Clair, MO Franklin County


The FAA registered address is my residence 38 miles from airport in suburb of St louis, Mo . St louis County.

I am not being treated fairly by St Louis county.


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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby GAHorn » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:07 am

MoonlightVFR wrote:My A/C is kept at St Clair, MO Franklin County


The FAA registered address is my residence 38 miles from airport in suburb of St louis, Mo . St louis County.

I am not being treated fairly by St Louis county.


Regards,

gradyb


I suggest you contact the county tax assessor and ask specifically which regulaton/law gives them the authority to tax your aircraft, and on what basis is it taxed. Ask for a copy of the law/reg...or go to the library and obtain a copy. Read it. I suspect that if you do, you will find a "loophole" which can be utilized to reduce/avoid the tax.
Example: (I don't know about MO law, but in Texas...): If an airplane is purchased within one year that is a replacement aircraft ...i.e., one that replaces one which has been sold, ... and if the transaction is the only one which occurs in a 12-month period... then it can be claimed as an "occasional" sale, and is exempt from sales tax. Many owners pay the tax not realizing they have this exemption available to them. In some cases the tax may not be avoided if the transaction passes thru a broker, so purchasing from an individual sometimes has benefits. (Let the seller satisfy any broker obligations directly rather than pass title thru the brokerage.)

IN some Texas counties, if your aircraft is hangared in a particular location on NEW YEARS DAY...it will be assessed a property or ad valorem tax. But if you MOVE the aircraft (take a trip) so it is NOT in that locale on that day the tax-man makes inspection, the tax can be avoided. (I.E., don't have a hangar lease on New Year's Day... allow your lease to expire Dec 31, and don't renew until Jan 2.)

Another example: In California, if you purchase an aircraft you will owe tax based upon it's "First operation of intended purpose". So, ... close the transaction out of state ... and take along a friend to be a passenger on the first flight...which you will insure is out of state both on the first takeoff...and the first landing. Purchase fuel at both airports. Use your credit card so a written record is made/documented of the flight. Do it on a flight plan. List the passenger in the remarks section. (The first intended use was for passenger pleasure/transport and occured out of state at both ends of the flight.) California's law is poorly written and this loophole avoids the use tax. (Article in the July issue of Fly Low magazine, written by California tax consultant.)

The point is, if you obtain a copy of the taxing-authority's law you may find obvious legal loopholes.
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby Joe Moilanen » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:01 am

All I know is that my 170 is the best investment I've ever made. I bought it over 20 years ago for $17,300 (everybody told me I paid too much). It has been a "no surprises" airplane, other than the typical maintenance costs, one top overhaul with new Millinium jugs, it has been trouble free. The 25 year old paint job even looks as good as the day I bought it. The BEST thing I ever did to it was install the optional factory camera port kit (came out of George's plane, thanks George :D ). The plane has paid for itself countless times. I remember doing one job with it in Roseville, CA that paid the entire purchase price in 1.2 hours of flying. How much better does it get than that!! I wish all my investments worked as well!!

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