Cessna 170 Resale values

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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby W.J.Langholz » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:48 pm

George
I think you maybe correct to some degree. I have been looking for a 205/206 for almost a year now and have also felt some firming up. I also think it will take a long time for it to come back, and maybe even make the statement that most aircraft were over inflated in price before the down turn. I also feel there is a group of people at the age where they could fly for another year or so but have lost so much over the last year or so, they no longer want to pay that hanger rent through this winter when they are less apt to fly, so I think there still will be a flush of smaller GA aircraft to show up on the market from those people. By spring..... all deals are off IMHO

W.
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby j3pup » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:21 pm

I think some other factors are the light sport category, cost of gas increasing average age of pilot group. I recently sold a home built cub, and the calls/bidding on the aircraft was amazing. Most of the people I talked to were downsizing due to gas, economy, medicals etc... I had several offers to trade C-182's, C-170's etc... Nobody can afford to fly these machines anymore...
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby GAHorn » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:35 pm

I'd rather make a half-dozen flights a year, and spend the rest of the time tinkering on it....than to sell it in a downturn.
In any case.... it's a personal choice but I'll never want to be without an airplane again in my lifetime. Even if I lose my medical I'll keep an airplane. I"ll let my kids/grandkids decide what to do with it when I'm gone.
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby DaveF » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:54 pm

Thank you, George. I couldn't agree more!
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby GAHorn » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:27 pm

Blue4 wrote:...: here's where the blue book (yada yada yada) value comes into real play: a lender will (typically) only loan up to 90% of the APPRAISED VALUE of the airplane. My plan was to temporarily finance about half the airplane; and I was approved via the AOPA-preferred lender to do just that yesterday. The elephant in the room, though, is that if I purchase a $40,000 170B that's only worth (according to the valuation sites) $30,000, then the max loan would be $27,000. And for that they own my "whole" airplane. I haven't even considered what an insurance company would pay out, but I'm guessing its the same amount.

At least when you buy a house, it will assess at what you're willing to pay for it. Isn't that the MEANING of value in the first place? *sigh* The search continues.


Re-visiting this topic,...
The APPRAISED VALUE of an airplane....is a nebulous matter. (sorry for the pun)
We have a participant/Member whom I assisted test-fly in his restoration/engine-swap a couple years ago. (I refuse to call an engine conversion an "upgrade".) :lol:
Anyways... he was obviously very proud of the multiple modifications he'd done on the bird, virtually all of them "field approvals". (Lots of his so-called "upgrade" mods were performed in a one-of-a-kind manner....long-range 182 fuel tanks, extra inspection-holes,special tail-wheel bracket, custom panel, overstuffed chairs, etc etc.)
He managed to ground-loop the thing a few months later and had to repair it. Now he's apparently interested in insuring it for what HE thinks it's worth...and his insurance underwriter is insisting upon an "appraisal" to verify his claimed value for which he is willing to pay premiums.
This person represents himself to be an official "Appraiser", a member of a well-known "Aircraft Appraisal Group", but the insurance company will not accept his "appraisal" of his own aircraft, so he approached me with a request that, since I"ve flown his highly-modified work-piece, and since I'm recognized in the type club, he wishes me to "appraise" it for the purpose, apparently believing that will carry some weight with the underwriter.
HE sent me his long list of special one-of-a-kind features along with the basics of the airplanes operational times, equipment list which includes expensive Apollo loran equipment, plus it's "spare" engine and other related objects, etc etc., hoping I"ll confirm for his underwriter at least SOME resemblance of the almost-6-figures he thinks the thing is worth. Not relishing the prospect, I have generally been very busy for the last year or so and have not gotten around to it.

Here's the problem: Firstly, an appraisal is usually based upon what value a representative or similar set of examples have recently-traded in a similar marketplace. When a "one-off" example is presented for "appraisal"....there is rarely a comparative example with which to measure. Additionally, the actual quality of the modification also bears upon the value of the end-result. I do not wish to express my view as to the quality of this persons work product.
I recall seeing a certain airplane offered for sale described as "formerly owned by the founder of..." a particular type-club.
The offering-price was in the high-range of value for that particular model. It looked good in photos. (Many airplanes look better in pics than reality.) The seller was of a high opinion of it.
I knew that airplane. It had been "restored" from mis-matched salvage aircraft, and painted on a dirt-floor on a humid day resulting in an "orange-peel" finish, of a non-standard paint-scheme for that model aircraft, in color-combinations never offered by the OEM. It took considerable effort on my part to avoid requests by potential buyers asking for help in "appraising" that airplane.

Anyway, ...the comparison of home/real-estate appraisal processes bears no resemblance to aircraft "appraisals". As the former "Vice-president of Aviation" for a $2 billion bank (I was merely chief pilot...but what a Title! No?) I can tell you that our MAI appraisers would look at a three story mansion with a designer-landscape and romanesque swimming pool...in a middle-class neighborhood and they'd make a HUGE DEDUCTION in value of that property! It didn't FIT!

Beware of anyone's claims to "official aircraft appraiser" status.

Aint no sucha thang!
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50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight.
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby edbooth » Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:36 pm

Personnaly I think the value of the planes we fly, is primarly based on the "Want Factor" and how much money the buyer has in his pocket and how much the wife will allow him to spend. When I bought 25A in 1970, it was very ugly and I paid 4400 for it which was about 500 too much. But I wanted it. I just noticed Marvin Nichols' (deceased past president) 170A model on Barnstormers for 70K. It's a very nice A model with a converstion.
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby Brad Brady » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:02 am

edbooth wrote:Personnaly I think the value of the planes we fly, is primarly based on the "Want Factor" and how much money the buyer has in his pocket and how much the wife will allow him to spend. When I bought 25A in 1970, it was very ugly and I paid 4400 for it which was about 500 too much. But I wanted it. I just noticed Marvin Nichols' (deceased past president) 170A model on Barnstormers for 70K. It's a very nice A model with a converstion.


Yep and Marve's has two ton of toys... :)
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby bubba144 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:36 am

I am new to the club and have an opportunity to buy a 56 170B. It is polished, so how do you assess resale value when TAP and VREF consider only paint?
Is there a guru I can call? Thanks
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby Bruce Fenstermacher » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:09 pm

Bub you assess the value the same. What is the condition of the aircraft. Does it have those things YOU want. Value is in the eyes of the beholder and a polished plane is not a plus in many eyes. Yes there are few who don't like the look but there are few who want to take on the continual maintenance to keep them polished.

If you want a "from the factory" show room stock 170B, and the work that comes with it, this one could be it, otherwise find a painted example.
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby GAHorn » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:33 pm

WELCOME, BUBBA!

I'm not certain I understand the core of your question.
Are you asking what value to give polished over painted airplanes (other items being equal)?
Or are you asking what value to give a particular (polished) airplane compared to the surface-treatment of airplane values provided by TAP/Vref?
Two very different questions.

I"ll take a stab at the first question: A polished airplane which is freshly treated is worth a new paint job....with a bonus!
This view might raise some eyebrows but here's why I feel that way: A polished airplane is being observed "naked"....and without make-up. It's surfaces are "clearly" corrosion-free and without hidden flaws.
Versus: A freshly painted airplane can hide a retinue of seriously devalued trouble. I've witnessed proud new owners who have taken their beautiful birds in for the first inspection...only to become crest-fallen and angry when the headliners are taken down to reveal extensive hail-damage which has been hidden by auto body-putty and painted-over. Hail damaged flight control surfaces can be treated such as to appear perfect....when in-fact they are un-airworthy. The loss of value can approach "total".
Fresh paint (or well-applied older paint) can hide repair-schemes which would fail inspection if discovered. A "dollar-and-a-dime" patch can be completely hidden by paint. Depending upon where that repair was applied, it may not be airworthy. Only a deeply-detailed inspection might discover it, ..may even be overlooked during a typical annual inspection.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying nicely painted airplanes are always worth less than polished airplanes. What I am saying is: Polished airplanes have a special feature of "transparency" with regard to surface-condition. Their downside is: they also require additional care to remain in top-"presentation" category.....but they carry just as much value as an undamaged, freshly painted aircraft.....without the "risk-factor".
Do not deduct value for polished over painted airplanes....but give them special-addition for their "revealed-condition factor"......UNLESS.....you had not planned for hangar-storage, or wish to store it outside near the coast. Polished airplanes require indoor, dry storage, and hangar costs must be considered, if you wish to keep its appearance bright.
If you don't mind it developing the "patina" which the mfr'r originally planned for it, then you might not place the hangar-costs uppermost, but personally, I don't feel any really nice, classic airplane deserves to be tied down outside with the "yard dogs". Even my mutt sleeps inside. Your view may vary.

If your question is more like the second situation above: Then all I can offer is similar to what Ed Booth stated: TAP and Vref are SERIOUSLY-FLAWED when it comes to placing value on classic aircraft. So is the blue-book, and here's why:
Those appraisal tools base their formulas upon records of RSA....."recent sales activity".
RSA is an excellent tool for evaluating a retail market of products in relatively-similar-condition with high levels of activity. New houses, used cars less than ten-years old, real estate, modern firearms, etc etc.
But the accurately and timely-reported sales of antique and classic airplanes are so few and far between, and their relative conditon is SO varied...it defies categorization within any close-value relevance. John Doe's mint, museum-piece is so different than Joe Blogg's highly-modified, glass-cockpitted screamer.... and only ONE of those has changed hands in the last five years ...and THAT transaction was privately-held and the actual sales-price unreported to avoid sales-tax issues...or over-reported by sales organizations to attract listings. You see the point?

In a nut-shell ...(where I live)...basically sound, airworthy examples of relatively average C-170s (all models) are worth about $35K, depending upon engine times ($12/hr these days) and avionics and logbooks/mx-records. Any more or any less is due to individual exceptions in condition, or due to your personal view of that example for your own purposes.
In other words, you are not going to be able to determine a hard set of values which can be assigned to each and every example of airplane that can have a dollar-figure placed on each. There is no "RSA" when it comes to antique and classic airplanes....and that is why TAP, Vref, and BlueBook formulas are so unhelpful.
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50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight.
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby c170b53 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:36 pm

Welcome to the club Bubba, if you have had a chance to do a few searches in the forums you'll likely find a few members that have their opinions. Some personalities involved may seem to stand out more than others, then again as a collective group maybe the sight of a wind farm may come to mind.
We are all guru's here, and how we value an airplane is likely closely tied to the W5's of our airplane usage. Good luck with your search, thanks for joining and this is your club, so don't hold back :D
Jim McIntosh..
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby c170b53 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:18 pm

Well it's always nice to visit an old thread, if not for the revelation of " I wrote that?"
I worked myself solidly into a corner and in spite of the good advice from Gary, a smaller shovel hasn't helped. I've got two rebuilds on the go. My hanger suffered damage from a storm that ripped part of the roof off, then the rain soaked the drywall which fell from the ceilings onto the planes. Of course the drywall had asbestos in it!
Now I'm thinking I need another plane to fly now and good planes are hard to find especially as the times have changed,bringing owners higher prices. Hasn't helped that the Canadian dollar has crashed or rather the greenback has launched. Another obstacle is finding something that has had good mods, done well. And one more, finding good paperwork or rather real paperwork. I thought I had something when a 56 came along but it's low s/n around 25000 ish suggested that it might be a Frankinscessna, reserected from the back of a hangar.
Still having fun with the search though and make sure you give your plane a hug when you think of it :D
Jim McIntosh..
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby blueldr » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:45 pm

My home state, California, is reknown for its excessive taxes. The pain of those taxes is mitigated by the gross number of pretty girls and the great weather we enjoy.
Taxes on the ownership of a Cessna C-170 are mitigated by public display of an aged airplane on a regular basis.
There are no taxes for admireing either the pretty girls or the aged airplanes.
BL
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby N2625U » Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:38 am

blueldr wrote:My home state, California, is reknown for its excessive taxes. The pain of those taxes is mitigated by the gross number of pretty girls and the great weather we enjoy.
Taxes on the ownership of a Cessna C-170 are mitigated by public display of an aged airplane on a regular basis.
There are no taxes for admireing either the pretty girls or the aged airplanes.

Yet....I'm sure the gov is thinking of that
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Re: Cessna 170 Resale values

Postby MoonlightVFR » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:58 pm

I am convinced that a late model C 170B delivers immense value to its owner.

We are talking all metal single engine, 4 seat, metal prop, 4 hours aloft full tank, correctly loaded.
A stable performer, a gentle cross country performer.

Compare the performance of a 1955 C170 B with a 2017 Cessna 172 tricycle model.

compare gross weight, empty weight, cruise speed, landing speed, fuel consummation, More...

The brand new Cessna does not hold any advantage over the 60 year old Cessna. Nothing. Oh the glass panel is unique

The Cessna was and is a genuine game changer

The value is there. Valuation is approximately $90,000. Market conditions constrain actual selling price to about 52,000. Compare the pricing to a lesser cloth covered Piper cub type and you will note the high value of a Cessna 170B.
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