Cessna 170 Resale values

[Blue4]

Its no particular secret I'm in the market for a 170B. Since my wife agrees 99 out of 10 times that I'm a difficult person, of course the must-have list includes a 180hp O-360.

I'd love some good answers -- how would you determine fair market value for ANY 170, and this flavor in particular?

I know what I want to pay, and of course that's a smaller number than anyone is asking. I also know the cost of a new O-360 conversion. Everyone always says that its cheaper to buy one that already has it ... but what's a non-insulting offering price?

Many thanks to all in advance.
-Scott

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Scott,

I suppose you would have to look at several and determine their quality or value without the conversion. Then I'd figure probably $15 to $20K more for the conversion. That in my mind is a realistic starting point. The problem is what is a stock 170 worth these days?

Not what you might like and I certainly would like to pay less for one and that is why I don't own one.

What ever aircraft you look at make sure the conversion is correctly documented and that you have the installtion documentation and the modification still meets the STC.

[GAHorn]

Condition. Condition. Condition.

And no two are the same so it's a wide-open wallet for the best examples.

Recently-completed conversions are rarely on the market and older conversions range from "experienced" hard-workers to worn out basket-cases and disassembled projects. If you find a truly nice converted airplane with low engine times and clean airframe with useful avionics that don't appear to have been installed from the results of an online-auction, then the price is most often influenced by the situation of the seller. Inactive/Inherited airplanes are usually available at "value"-prices, but they usually resemble restoration-projects. Finding one with good engine times, all the logs, and nice cosmetics and equipment is going to bring a fine price. Since "original" 170-B's in better condition bring $40K-$50K, it's not surprising that equally-fine conversions cost another $15-20K as Bruce suggests.

... but what's a non-insulting offering price? -Scott

There are owners who swap airplanes as often as they eat out....and there are those who keep and treasure them because they have personal-effort and/or memories invested in them. It's difficult to insult the former and hard not to the latter.

I'm never insulted when someone recognizes the true replacement value of my airplane, even tho' it's not for sale. I'd think the same would hold true for conversion-owners.

(While discussing toy-prices.... have you visited a gun-show recently? Good, classic firearms are getting very difficult to find for-sale at any price...but when they are, the prices have resembled the gasoline-prices of last spring. It seems like every time gasoline spikes up... everyone figures that everything else should follow. A pre-64 Winchester model '94 used to be considered pricey at $250 only ten years ago... and now they are priced at $1100-$1300. I don't agree with those who say that aircraft values are falling due to the economy. There are some types of airplanes that are priced very low these days....(such as Grumman-American Yankees/Tigers and Traumahawks...) but the classicly-attractive models will hold their own and escalate, in my opinion, because they are still scarce and getting scarcer.)

[futr_alaskaflyer]

Based on the asking prices of listings in the recent 170 News I found in my mailbox when I returned to town this week, values seem to be holding rather well

[Blue4]

To ensure I was doing my homework, I checked the price via Vref (free to AOPA members). For a 170B with an O-360, mid-time engine, their value was no higher than $33,812.24. The membership's views of Vref's values are mentioned elsewhere on this thread. If you're a Trade-A-Plane subscriber, you can get estimates from the National Aircraft Appraiser's Association for free. Their value was no higher than $38,200. Hmm.

Regardless, everyone on this board recognizes the value of a 170B as something higher than each of those figures. But now I have somewhere to start from when I make my opening bid later this week. Please wish me luck!

[GAHorn]

V-ref, NAAA and all other "blue book" appraisal services base their estimates upon reported sales...by the sellers (former owners.) Naturally, those former owners think very highly of the condition of their aircraft. (That's why sellers typically rate their paint/interior/condition and asking prices as quite high...and buyers are typically disgusted with what they find during the pre-buy inspection, and purchase many aircraft welll below asking prices.)

The result is an actual reported sales price lower than the aircraft's relative condition-rating. Therefore, you'll find "appraisals" that hold better-condition aircraft at lesser-condition values.

The truth is that truly excellent condition aircraft bring premium prices, while those that are "represented" as excellent....may actually sell far below their original asking price....and are reported as lower-priced sales of aircraft improperly categorized.

The Vreg price likely does not give addt'l value to the Lycoming conversion beyond the additional 200 hours of recommended TBO. At approx $12/hr...that's only $2400 and why Vref is out-of-touch on a conversion aircraft.

[jrenwick]

Thanks, George. I've noticed the discrepancy between "bluebook" and the real world for classic aircraft, and you've offered a very reasonable explanation for it.

John

[jrenwick]

In the "FWIW" department: I've been advertising a classic aircraft for a few months now, and just in the last couple of weeks noticed a definite uptick in the number of calls on it. I keep my nose to the ground, hoping for a return of the bull market, so I'm taking this as a hopeful sign.

Of course, you can imagine what "part" of the bull you'd smell first, with your nose close to the ground.

John

[Zreyn]

FWIW I have my 170B with 180 LYC C/S prop stol cuff Javalin tank 3/4 time eng up for sale & have had it there for sometime now.Brand spanking new paint&interior no radios.I may have my asking price too high but I have had two nibbles & no return calls.I see others asking anywhere from $92,000 in Lakeland FL to $32,000 for the one talked about in these forums as an estate sale.All the blue book & other professional apraising doesn't have much to do with what anything sells for.what counts is what recent simalar products have sold for & what the availability seems to be.Also the appeal that your particular thing that you are selling has to the particular potential buyer.If you go look at six 57 Chevys one of them will be the one that you just can't live without.How bad the seller needs/wants to sell & how bad the buyer needs/wants to own sets the price.I know it will take a lot more than $32,000 to entice me to sell mine at this time.Maybe a year or five years from now I will have a dif. view of things.By the way while I'm here can someone tell me why my posting dissapeared from the tradmart? Others were/are on there a lot longer than mine.Do I need to repost every so often or somthing?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I can't say why your particular add was removed and others have been there longer. Except to say it was probably just removed with general house cleaning, something we probably don't do enough off.

Please feel free to repost your add.

[Blue4]

Zreyn: please contact me offline to talk about your airplane.

To all the others: here's where the blue book (yada yada yada) value comes into real play: a lender will (typically) only loan up to 90% of the APPRAISED VALUE of the airplane. My plan was to temporarily finance about half the airplane; and I was approved via the AOPA-preferred lender to do just that yesterday. The elephant in the room, though, is that if I purchase a $40,000 170B that's only worth (according to the valuation sites) $30,000, then the max loan would be $27,000. And for that they own my "whole" airplane. I haven't even considered what an insurance company would pay out, but I'm guessing its the same amount.

At least when you buy a house, it will assess at what you're willing to pay for it. Isn't that the MEANING of value in the first place? *sigh* The search continues.

[mekstrand]

Blue4,

Make sure you ask a lot of questions about the AOPA loan before you sign a contract. I had planned on financing about half of my 170 with them back in June (I’m also building an aerobatic aircraft so I wanted to keep some cash for my project). After the approval process was completed I wrote and executed a purchase agreement for my 170. It was only after I signed the purchase agreement that the bank (B of A) mailed me the loan documents. I was surprised to notice that the interest rate was not the 5.9% that I had been previously quoted. The loan officer that I spoke with informed me that since I requested a loan of less than $30,000, the interest rate more than doubled and was now 12.9%! This was standard, she said. I told her she could keep her money, and gave some direction as to where they could store it.

So I wrote a check for my plane. I’m just glad that was an option for me, as I had already signed a contract agreeing to purchase the 170.

Marshall

[W.J.Langholz]

In the "FWIW" department: I've been advertising a classic aircraft for a few months now, and just in the last couple of weeks noticed a definite uptick in the number of calls on it. I keep my nose to the ground, hoping for a return of the bull market, so I'm taking this as a hopeful sign.

Of course, you can imagine what "part" of the bull you'd smell first, with your nose close to the ground.

John

John
That must be some CAT Litter on your shoes.........the Bull is still in it's pen............


W.

[jrenwick]

John
That must be some CAT Litter on your shoes.........the Bull is still in it's pen............


W.

Heh!

[GAHorn]

I have been participating in the search for a couple of aircraft for clients. (King Airs mostly)
About 4 months ago the market had a lot of aircraft being offered at prices that were higher than I thought reasonable, but the sellers were obviously distressed and willing to "deal". I believe that is because they'd bought their equipment in better-times and were not wishing to let it go at today's deperessed prices...but on the other hand they were feeling the pressures of the down economy.

In the last 30 days I've seen those same aircraft asking prices "firm up", which I personally believe is due to the perception that the economy has bottomed ....(whether true or not remains to be seen)....and the sellers are now less willing to be haggled with.

If the economy truly shows signs of having bottomed and looking for an upswing, I expect many aircraft to come off the market... and others to have an increase in asking prices. In other words, if you are buying...you might wish to be more aggressive in acquisition right now before prices rise again. If you are selling, it may not be necessary to take much reduction in your asking price.

MHO.