Aviation Insurance Group of Oklahoma

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eichenberger
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Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 8:27 pm

Post by eichenberger »

See, the difference is that lawyers love tedium, or at least so when we can use it to our clients' advantage!!
Contact me off forum for a question please. jeichenberger@ehlawyers.com
Jerry Eichenberger
Columbus, Ohio
jeichenberger@ehlawyers.com
zero.one.victor
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Post by zero.one.victor »

How come none of you flamed Jerry for using the "A" word? If I'da said that,you'da been all over me........ :?

Eric
Last edited by zero.one.victor on Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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AIG of Bethany

Post by N2255D »

I talked with AIG today and they are back writing policies. As always they were helpful explaining to me that they had been shut down for almost 2 months for fraud in their office. The bad part is the premium is $125 higher.
I have been with AIG of Bethany Since 1988 and have always had good service. My Cessna 140 was destroyed by a windstorm and the claim was taken care of promptly.
eichenberger
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Post by eichenberger »

I can't believe you'd deal again with this bunch. Fraud is fraud. Also, the good service that you got on a previous claim was due to your insurance company, not the broker. Brokers have almost no involvement in claims handling.
Jerry Eichenberger
Columbus, Ohio
jeichenberger@ehlawyers.com
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N1478D
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Post by N1478D »

Do fraudulent brokers get to skip law school if they want to become lawyers or judges? 8) - use their experience in place of education.

One or two bad potatos in a sack can make the rest go bad, not sure about one or two brokers in an office making the rest go bad - maybe the others in the office are why the bad ones are caught!
Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
eichenberger
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Post by eichenberger »

You, Sir, sound like the southern most part of a northbound horse.
Jerry Eichenberger
Columbus, Ohio
jeichenberger@ehlawyers.com
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Post by N1478D »

And you sound like a lawyer - I'll take sounding like the bad end of the horse. :lol:
Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
zero.one.victor
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Post by zero.one.victor »

Jerry,you're way too sensitive--don't let a joking comment get your panties in a twist!!
I'm reminded of an expression I heard--when ya throw a rock into a pack of hounds,the one who yelps is the one who got hit! :lol:

Eric
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Post by N170BP »

The thought that comes to my mind is, if it doesn't
matter who the broker is (i.e., what's important is
if/when you have a claim, the *underwriter* steps up
to the plate pronto and honors the policy in an amicable
way), then who cares who the broker is or how you found
your path to the honorable/dependable underwriter? If there
are 4 (or whatever) major underwriters out there, someone
convince me why I shouldn't shop for (and go with) the broker
who gets me the cheapest policy with whatever major underwriter
is the soup de jour (best deal, best service, etc.).

Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
eichenberger
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Post by eichenberger »

Eric and Bela -
Let me first address Eric's comment. I have no tolerance for those who insult others. If a person has to get his humor at the expense of another's feelings, I have little use for that behavior. It's juvenile and immature. There are, for sure, dishonest people in every line of work. But I don't insult any person because I may have perceived or encountered an unethical, different person in the same work.
As for Bela's question - The choice of a broker has NO, read again, NO effect on what your insurance quote will be. The underwriter at an insurance comapny is duty bound to quote the same risk at the same premium for the same coverage, regardless of who the broker is.
What the Bethany people got in trouble for was skimming refunds. When airplanes are sold during mid-policy, often there is some refund of unused premium. That amount is transmitted by the insurance company to the broker to be given to the client.
Perhaps some owners didn't know that they had money coming back, and the allegations were that this agency was keeping the money instead of returning it.
What matters to me in the choice of a broker is honesty and sevice. One scam that some dishonest brokers do is misrepresent, to the insurance company, some of the criteria upon which a quote is based. I've seen cases where the broker cut a 68 year old down to 38 to beat another's quote, inflated pilot time, and time in type to get an underwriter to quote a risk that he otherwise wouldn't, and a whole host of similar sins. Those poor pilots would have had a claim denied, based on fraud in the application, if they had a loss - and some did; that's why the cases ended up in this office.
Service is important too - are calls returned promptly, does the agent know your airplane type, can you get to the agent at odd times like weekends and summer evenings if you do have an accident and need immediate help? All this matters too.
Jerry
Jerry Eichenberger
Columbus, Ohio
jeichenberger@ehlawyers.com
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Post by N1478D »

eichenberger wrote:See, the difference is that lawyers love tedium, or at least so when we can use it to our clients' advantage!!
Contact me off forum for a question please. jeichenberger@ehlawyers.com
Tedium, tedium, tedium, run the price up - right! What part of the price of a new Cessna is devoted to your profession? Why are you attacking people in Oklahoma when you are up in Ohio? It would be much more honorable if you were attacking the people in your profession who are filling their pockets up at the expense of everyone else. A good lawyer can laugh at lawyer jokes because it is not directed at him - how come you are not laughing? Your profession killed general aviation manufacturing untill the government stepped in and put limits on you guys. Personally, I don't give a dam about your tolerance level. The next time you are slowing things down in a court room making over $200 an hour, give some appreciation to people who work hard to keep industries like aviation alive.
Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
eichenberger
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Post by eichenberger »

Joe-
I sense frustration in your message, but allow me the courtesy of a response in a gentlemanly tone.
Frist of all, remember that we have a jury system in this country. No matter what you think of lawyers and judges, it is common folks, sitting on juries, who award verdicts - nobody else does. If you get the chance to serve on a jury, do it and don't try to get out of it. We need all points of view on a jury.
You won't believe the numbers of jurors who know that insurance money is at stake in most lawsuits, and how few of them consider that to be real money. Everyone wants to screw the insurance company.
Next, since you don't know me, allow me to tell you that I'm a defense lawyer. I represent manufacturers, airlines, maintenance facilities, pilots, FBOs, flight schools, airports, etc. in litigation.
I'm not attacking anyone, be they in Oklahoma or in Ohio. What I do attack is dishonesty, anywhere it exists. IF, and I say if because I don't know, the allegations against that agency are correct, I would never use them because I don't deal with anyone who is proven to be dishonest.
As for our prrofession killing GA, that debate will never end. It's just interesting to note that 1986 was a pivotal year when GA manufacturing went into the toilet, but it was the same year that the investment tax credit was eliminated, which heavily impacted sales of all capital goods, not just airplanes. And that was also the same time that the Vietnam era GI Bill ended, which really killed many flight schools.
The government's General Aviation Revitalization Act of 1994, which is what I think you're talking about, didn't lessen litigation by avaricious plaintiffs at all - it just changed the target from the manufacturer to others, like airports and maintenance facilities.
I laugh at many lawyer jokes, and tell my share of them myself. Plus, I love the Shakespeare quote that, "The first thing we do, we kill all the lawyers". Just remember that conversation took place between King Henry and Beckett, when Beckett was telling Henry what must be done in order to dissolve Parliament for good, destroy the rights of Englishmen, and restore the English monarchy to absolute rule.
Jerry
Jerry Eichenberger
Columbus, Ohio
jeichenberger@ehlawyers.com
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Post by N1478D »

Good Morning Jerry,

I am frustrated. And, there are many times when a judge decides, with influence from lawyers, what the outcome is without a jury being involved. A tactic sometimes used is to run one party out of money so they cannot continue defending themeselves.

I am assuming the comment about fraudulent brokers skipping law school is what insulted you. It was not intended as an insult to you, and looking back, if I would have thought of your feelings, I would most likely have stuck to the topic of the chance that not everyone in that AIG office was involved in wrong doing and left the supposedly funny out of it.

Can't quote the source or the numbers accurately, but of a $175,000 new airplane, maybe over half is due to the cost of the manufacturer being sued. Like the person who sued McDonalds for the coffee being too hot and hurt herself when she spilled it in her lap. And, survivors sueing Cessna because the airplane was flown in to a mountain. It is not good press for lawyers, judges, and our court system. Our system and our society does not hold people accountable for their actions - here in the DFW metroplex it is against the law to leave your key in the car - you are tempting a car thief. That law just kills me, instead of making the punishment of car thiefs enough of a deterrent, they pass a law against law abiding citizens.

Back to 170's, I flew mine to work again today and then walked the fast paced 45 minutes to the office. To quote Leonardo da Vinci - "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for here you have been, and there you will always long to return." Can't figure out how he knew that before airplanes were invented, but he sure is right on.

Thanks for addressing my comments in a nice manner.
Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
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GAHorn
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Post by GAHorn »

eichenberger wrote:Eric and Bela -
Let me first address Eric's comment. I have no tolerance for those who insult others. If a person has to get his humor at the expense of another's feelings, I have little use for that behavior. It's juvenile and immature. There are, for sure, dishonest people in every line of work. But I don't insult any person because I may have perceived or encountered an unethical, different person in the same work.
As for Bela's question - The choice of a broker has NO, read again, NO effect on what your insurance quote will be. The underwriter at an insurance comapny is duty bound to quote the same risk at the same premium for the same coverage, regardless of who the broker is.
What the Bethany people got in trouble for was skimming refunds. When airplanes are sold during mid-policy, often there is some refund of unused premium. That amount is transmitted by the insurance company to the broker to be given to the client.

OK, guys. Let's all remember to remain friends. No derogatories exchanged, ...OK?

Perhaps some owners didn't know that they had money coming back, and the allegations were that this agency was keeping the money instead of returning it.
What matters to me in the choice of a broker is honesty and sevice. One scam that some dishonest brokers do is misrepresent, to the insurance company, some of the criteria upon which a quote is based. I've seen cases where the broker cut a 68 year old down to 38 to beat another's quote, inflated pilot time, and time in type to get an underwriter to quote a risk that he otherwise wouldn't, and a whole host of similar sins. Those poor pilots would have had a claim denied, based on fraud in the application, if they had a loss - and some did; that's why the cases ended up in this office.
Service is important too - are calls returned promptly, does the agent know your airplane type, can you get to the agent at odd times like weekends and summer evenings if you do have an accident and need immediate help? All this matters too.
Jerry
Jerry, I don't agree that it makes no difference which broker one uses. I'm sensitive to any variations when I get an insurance quote. I've gotten significant differences on the exact same insurance, written by the same underwriter, from different brokers. In my experience, it's no different than one avionics shop selling a Garmin 196 for less than another shop might. They both have "mfr's recommended" retail prices, but we all know they have lattitude on the actual selling price.

With regard to accusations that some broker may improperly alter application information in order to deceive the underwriter to cause them to issue a lower quote: I believe it's still encumbent upon the insured to proof-read the policy and correct any errors contained within the application. The accuracy of the application is the responsibility of the insured/applicant.

With regard to AIG (Behany, Ok), ...do you have specific, factual knowlege of fraud on their part? Is it possible that they were merely accused of such fraud, and that they had their license only temporarily suspended until such allegations were disproven? Or is it possible that they inadvertently made some error that required their recompense prior to resuming operations? Or did they knowingly, deliberately, practice fraud and then someone in Oklahome state government fine them, and allow them to be re-instated on probation?

Here's my concern: First that we not participate in an accusation of fraud without basis, and Secondly that any dispersions be properly corrected unless found to be factual. I wonder how a brokerage could be reinstated without penalty unless they were in fact not guilty,...in which case we shouldn't add fuel to the flames of rumor. Lastly, I'd certainly hope we all still strive to believe a person innocent until proven guilty, despite our governments recent propensities to dispense with personal freedom guarantees.

Thanks for any light you can share in this matter.
eichenberger
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 8:27 pm

Post by eichenberger »

George -
Your experience with different brokers getting different quotes for the same insurance is odd - in light of the industry standard that each company will only quote once for each risk, and decline a quote to another broker. How'd you manage to get different quotes from different brokers from the same underwriter?
As to the Bethany situation, that's why I had a big capital IF in my post to Joe. I don't have the time or inclination to be the Oklahoma Insurance Dept.'s investigator, so, no, I don't know what the final outcome if the squabble was, or if it's yet been finalized at all.
If I were going to deal with them, I'd surely ask for a complete explanation of all of the particulars.
The Insurance Journal, a trade recognized daily newsletter first broke the story about the unrefunded refunds. That's all that I know for sure, a story in a reputable trade publication.
I also agree with you that evrey person should read his application and policy. Unfortunately, few do.
Jerry
Jerry Eichenberger
Columbus, Ohio
jeichenberger@ehlawyers.com
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