Aviation Insurance Group of Oklahoma

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n3833v
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Post by n3833v »

I am insured with Falcon[website] and they now cover many groups and the writer is the Big group AIG.
John Hess
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N4373B
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Post by N4373B »

Yes, the problem is with the agent AIG of Bethany Ok, not the AIG underwriter. AIG (Oklahoma) did send me a quote prior to my policy running out. When I later ound out that they would not renew my policy, I called the AOPA number for insurance. The person I spoke with there said she'd had several other AIG clients call her that day. She ended up getting me a quote at slightly ($30) less than the original quote from AIG. Both quotes were about 20% higher than last year's rate.
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170C
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Aviation Insurance

Post by 170C »

As has been mentioned several times, almost any independent insurance agent can get you a quote for your aircraft through one of his markets. One agent that specializes in aviation insurance only is Halton Hall & Associates in Fort Worth, TX. Hal Hall is the owner and Tom Bradshaw is the lead underwriting person. I have know Tom and worked with him in the past. I don't know how he stacks up price wise, but I am going to have him give me a quote and compare it to some of the others. They can be reached at http://www.haltonhall.com. Email address is halhall@haltonhall.com Their address is P.O. Box 6275, Fort Worth, TX 76140 and the phone number is 817-293-3530. Also a source for a listing of aviation insurors is avsaf.org.

Ole Pokey
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wa4jr
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Post by wa4jr »

WOW! Amazing how fast the "good guy" becomes the "bad guy"! I have had insurance by AIG of Bethany for the past year and have been happy. The folks were always nice when I phoned and I just got the "heads up" notice regarding my upcomming renewal in September. They requested updated information with which to renew the policy...but I guess that will not be happening. :( I still have a terrible taste in my mouth from AVEMCO, so won't be touching them with a 20 foot lineman's pole :x Guess I will let AOPA take a shot as well as AUA. Geez...just ONE more thing to worry about!
John, 2734C in Summit Point, WV
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Post by N170BP »

I've had similar experiences with them. Always pleasant
on the phone, not a bad price, they came highly recommended.

Gut feeling is that somebody "up top" (in management) did
a bad thing and the folks we interface with day-to-day had
no idea. No matter what the actual case is, it's too bad....

I will also avoid Avemco like the plague. I'm an AOPA member,
but have heard nothing but horror stories about insurance
quotes via that outfit (premium prices for a policy are all over
the map with no rhyme or reason as to why).

Like you say, just another thing to worry about.... (I also
got the questioneer asking for "updated" information.....).

Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
eichenberger
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Post by eichenberger »

Please remember, don't call more than one agent for quotes. Calling more than one just gums up the works - the underwriters will only quote one agent for your risks anyhow.
Our insurance is with Avinsure. They cover Ohio and adjoining states, plus Tenn. and Montana; maybe Ill. too. Toll free # is 888- GR8 2 FLY.
Jerry Eichenberger
Columbus, Ohio
jeichenberger@ehlawyers.com
superpilot_75965
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AIG Insurance

Post by superpilot_75965 »

what happened is the owners/brokers were pocketing refund due policy holders. The OK insurance board suspended their licenses. The policy's in force are still in force and future policy writing may still take place after the dust settles. This information from Prop wash and OK insurance commission web site. Amount involved said to be around 100K They were brokers not insurers. Bil
theduckhunter
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Post by theduckhunter »

eichenberger wrote:Please remember, don't call more than one agent for quotes. Calling more than one just gums up the works - the underwriters will only quote one agent for your risks anyhow.
Our insurance is with Avinsure. They cover Ohio and adjoining states, plus Tenn. and Montana; maybe Ill. too. Toll free # is 888- GR8 2 FLY.
I believe you should always call more that one agent. Agents can "mark" or put a "lock" on your plane by N number or serial number so that other agents are unable to give you an insurance quote. Different agents can sometimes come back with different priced quotes from the same insurer, even when they both started with the same information. When you are fishing for quotes, don't give the agent your N-number or serial number, just tell him you are not sure but the plane is a model ******, year ****** and any other general information, of course with your specific personal information.
Robbie Yeaman
Virginia
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eichenberger
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Post by eichenberger »

Robbie -
I must respectfully say that your approach to getting quotes is all wet, unless price is the only determinate for you.
My agent won't deal with someone who tries to play games by being deceptive. Most all of the others I know won't either.
The important thing is to pick a good agent, an honest one (unlike the people whose problems started this thread), one who knows your airplane type, and who will obtain quotes from all of the insurance companies, explain each one to you, and let you decide.
Face it - the premiums for small, single engine airplanes aren't enough to generate huge commissions for any agent. Ethical agents who try their best for customers like us appreciate an ethical customer in return. What goes around comes around.
Jerry Eichenberger
Columbus, Ohio
jeichenberger@ehlawyers.com
theduckhunter
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Post by theduckhunter »

Jerry,
Please don't misunderstand. In no way do I suggest that one should do anything deceptive or unethical. The fact is that different agents starting with the exact same information can come back with different quotes from the same insurer sometimes with differences as much as 15% for the exact same coverage limits. Only give the agent what he needs to give you a complete quote, don't give him the power to lock down your N-number or serial so that other agents can't give you quotes as well.

If you have an agent you have used for a long time who you know is honest and you want to stick with only him, good for you and enjoy that relationship. If you are shopping for insurance and you want to get the best price, be smart, don't give him your N-number or serial number until you are ready to buy.
:wink:
Robbie Yeaman
Virginia
2993D, now 2980C a C-180
zero.one.victor
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Post by zero.one.victor »

I have to go along with Robbie on this one. Why should a broker be able to lock an underwriter into insuring me ONLY THRU HIM? By requesting a quote on insurance,I don't feel that I have appointed that agent as my personal representative or otherwise committed my business to him. That refusal by insurance underwriter(s) to quote more than one broker on insurance for the same tail number has always bugged me. The fact that when you can get more than one quote,they often are for quite different amounts leads me to believe that some broker's are setting their sights a little too high with regards to their markup.
"The important thing is to pick a good agent,an honest one......."--that's good advice,Mel,but I don't personally know any aircraft insurance brokers,I'm picking names out of GA News,Trade a Plane,or wherever.I don't know any of them from Adam. Be just my luck to get the crookedest one of them all,and then get locked in. I thought the folks at AIG were alright,I insured with them for two years,now look what's going on with them.

Eric
eichenberger
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Post by eichenberger »

Maybe I'm not communicating. In order for two different agents to get different quotes from the same insurance company, one of them has to be giving different information. This happens all of the time.
Here's an example:
My agent had a 68 year old lady who had just bought a Comanche. Naturally, the quote was high, due to the lady's age and lack of prior time in a Comanche.
A few days later, the lady called my agent, raising hell that another agent had gotten her a quote for far less money, way less.
My agent called the insurance company to find out what was going on.
The insurance company told my agent that the quote was for a different pilot, one 38 YEARS OLD. So, this lady got the price she wanted, but if she has an accident, she has no coverage at all, since it was procured with fraudulent information.
This kind of crap goes on all the time, that's one of the reasons that I handle a couple of coverage denial lawsuits every year.
I think the insurance companies have every good reason to give only one agent a quote per airplane. It helps stop the kind of stuff I just mentioned. A dishonest agent can manipulate your application to get you the price you want, but you may well have no coverage. Little things that you may not notice can be done, like saying that your plane is hangared when it isn't, or based at a large airport when, in fact, it's on your farm strip. Then, the big one, is misrepresenting pilot age and qualifications. Unless your really review your policy and the attached copy of the application, you may not catch the agent in any dishonesty.
Also, realize that the underwriters at insurance companies don't have all day to give repeated identical quotes for a $1200 - $1500 premium. Frankly, that's chicken feed to both the underwriters and good agents who have a good business.
As for the guy who is picking his agent out of ads - to me, it's like picking anything else that way - your doctor, dentist, lawyer, accountant, etc. Ask around the airport and get some recommendations from long time aircraft owners. The big brokers often do an excellent job, but so do many of the smaller ones.
If price is your primary determinate, your may be getting what you're paying for. Lousy coverage, and bad service.
I'll pay a little more, if necessary, to make sure that my quote is based on true and accurate information given to the insurance company. If i need my insurance, I want insurance that is effective and in force, and not subject to denial. I also what an agent whom I can contact at 4:00 PM on a Sunday afternoon if I have an accident and need help NOW.
Sorry to be so windy, but since my law practice is almost totally devoted to aviation matters, I get worked up when I see pilots end up with no coverage, or lousy coverage, because they bought price only, and from an agent who didn't explain all of the options, or worse yet, cheated to get the business.
Jerry Eichenberger
Columbus, Ohio
jeichenberger@ehlawyers.com
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GAHorn
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Post by GAHorn »

Jerry, this last response from you should be very helpful in assisting others to understand the problem. Thank you.
Let me add something. (I know. I know. It's really rare for me to do this, but you guys are all probably wondering what I think about this. Right? 8) (Heh-heh.)

Here's the deal. It may seem unfair to us customers for an agent to "lock" down our tail number. We think it'd be better for us to be able to shop around.
But from the insurance industry's standpoint, here's what happens.
XYZ insurance underwriter gets a call from ABC broker wanting a quote (and a quote means they also have to be willing to BIND that coverage!) on a 1953 170B, N146YS, serial 25713 at $50K hull, $1mil liability, with smooth limits. They quote a price of $1000, and the agent adds his 20% and quotes me $1200. I think that's too damn much!
So I call El Cheapo agent, and he calls around, one of the underwriter's he calls is XYZ, who quotes the same $1000, and El Cheapo adds his 15% and quotes me $1150. I begin to think that maybe this insurance is more competitive than I thought so I call a third agent, whom we'll call Okie from Muskogie, or OM for short.
He knows I'm shopping price by now, because when OM calls XYZ they tell him "We've already quoted this airplane for two other agents." OM decides he really wants to beat the other guys out of this business because he's not been doing so well lately, so he informs XYZ that the customer only wants $50K hull, $1mil liabiltiy, but with $100K per pax sublimits. XYZ quotes a price of $700 for that coverage (because the risk is less on a non-smooth-limit policy.) OM tacks on $400 for himself (make a ton more money than either of the other agents would have) and tells me he can get me insurance for only $1100! That sounds so good to me, I tell him to DO IT! He tells me to send him a check, in-full, right away. (The other guys might have been willing to accept quarterly payments with no finance charges.)
Meanwhile XYZ has tied up a lot of their underwriting reserves holding Binders for 3 agents when only one schemer has landed the deal offering the customer less coverage with higher mark-up! (XYZ has had to hold all those quotes open for binding because they have no idea which agent I'm going to actually use.)
There's more to it than this even, but this might give you a bit of insight to the problems.
The industry has created a defense mechanism. The underwriteres will only quote according to tail number, and they'll not allow more than one agent to tie up their binding dollars on the same tail number.
But you, the customer, still has the option of writing a letter of appointment to a different agent, changing agents and getting that new agent's pricing on coverage.
The solution is to ask your agent what he charges for coverage commisions, or to find an agent that gives good service when things go wrong (ask around who has used the guy previously) and stick with him. A good agent will take care of a long-time customer when things begin to go poorly. Good luck.
eichenberger
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Post by eichenberger »

George -
Thanks for your input too. But, there is one mistake. When the agent gets the quote from the insurance company, that quote INCLUDES the agent commission. The insurer sets the commission rate when the quote is issued. And, it's never 20% on domestic policies.
An unusual risk that requires going to Lloyd's or other non-domestic markets may carry a commission that high, but all domestic coverage is written from 10% to 15% commission, and the % declines as the premium rises. Commercial coverages typically pay commission at the lower end of that scale, since the premium is higher, while the plain vanilla, low premium coverages for personal aircraft policies pay at the higher end.
And, an agent cannot cut the commission for two reasons. First, his contract with the insurance companies forbids it, so we don't have the very scenario that you described. Also, it's illegal in every state for an agent to give any sort of discount or rebate of commission. He can lose his license if caught.
Same for financing premium. You have to be a qualified premium finance company, which industry is regulated by the various state insurance departments. Any agent who finances it hinself, unless he's also licensed as a premium finance company, risks losing his license if caught.
Here's another for instance:
There's an agent I know of who is also an FBO and has a maintenance shop. He tries to get insurance customers by offering them, under the table, a discount on fuel bought at his airport. If I were an asshole, which I hopefully am not, I'd report him to the state insurance department and he could lose his insurance license for giving a "rebate" to his insurance customers. But I haven't and probably won't.
Jerry Eichenberger
Columbus, Ohio
jeichenberger@ehlawyers.com
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GAHorn
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Post by GAHorn »

Thanks, Jerry. I'm not an insurance expert, so I got the info from my brother-in-law (who is middle mgmnt at AIG, the underwritring group, not the Bethany, Ok guys), and that's how he described how it works in Texas and certain other states. (As you know, each state has it's own insurance regs.)
Each agency may "sponsor" individual agents who may quote an individual policy, and who may work on an entirely different commission basis than another agent selling the identical policy.
Each agent may only sell insurance in their licensing state, unless they purchase a license in each state (unlikely and troublesome from the testing requirements) or they may simply have a reciprocal agreement with an agent in another state in order to sell there.
I painted the descripition with a broad brush in order to give an idea of the problem, rather than spend my entire afternoon giving tedium to this issue. (As everyone knows, I always practice brevity and never delve into minutea details on any subject.) :wink:
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