Another MoGas warning

[GAHorn]

In several threads over the years, it's been bantered back and forth about the evils or virtues of mogas in various engines.
I personally have found modern ethanol-laced mogas particularly damaging to small equipment engines such as lawn mowers, generators, garden tillers, inboard boat engines stored seasonally, etc., etc., and have taken the effort/expense of using avgas for the last seasonal use before storing them, and/or using other methods (Sta-Bil) to ward off the mogas-gremlins which kill fuel systems in those equipments.

In a very recent Consumer Reports article, I found the following, FYI:

For years, people would get gas for their mowers and snow blowers at the same time they filled up the car. Whatever went into the car went into the gas can. But when gas stations started selling gasoline with 10-percent ethanol (E10), homeowners and repair shops began noticing problems with small power equipment such as corroded parts and engines that ran hotter and broke sooner. Now with the introduction of gas with 15-percent ethanol, which can be more damaging, the Outdoor Power Equipment Institute has stepped in with a program called Look Before You Pump.

With the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's approval of E15 gasoline for use in cars from 2001 or later, it’s become a choice at more and more gas stations. “The more ethanol in gasoline, the more acute the effects,” said Marv Klowak, a vice president at Briggs & Stratton, the largest manufacturer of small engines. And even though the EPA prohibits E15 for use in smaller engines, the 3x3-inch warning label on gas pumps is barely discernible among all the other labels, ads, and signs. “If you’ve fueled your product the same way for 10, 20, or even 50 years, that 3x3-inch pump label is not going to change that behavior,” Kris Kiser, president and CEO of the OPEI, said.

Kiser said he hoped the new campaign would grab more attention. “Our message is super simple, and we’re going to say it whenever we can, to whoever we can, and as often as possible—to look before you pump,” Kiser said. The industry group has begun distributing hang-tags, in-store displays, fact sheets, posters, and other materials to big fuel users such as equipment dealers, distributors, and landscapers. On tap are radio and video public-service announcements to reach the owners of 3 million pieces of outdoor power equipment.

At last week’s Green Industry & Equipment Expo show in Louisville, Ky., we saw many more companies selling ethanol-free fuel by the can. Briggs & Stratton showed its new Advanced Formula Ethanol Free Fuel, sold at home centers. Husqvarna also showed similar products it will sell through its dealers, as does Stihl with its Motomix fuel. You’ll also find ethanol-free fuel at Sears, Home Depot, and Lowe’s for about $5 to $8 a quart—expensive, but cheaper than a new carburetor or engine.

If you find that ethanol-free fuel costs too much, at least buy enough for the first and last fuelings of the season. In between, add stabilizer to pumped gasoline. Sta-Bil’s line includes one that claims to protect your engine from ethanol. You should also run your gear often. And at the end of the season, run your equipment dry and drain the carburetor bowl.

[bigrenna]

delete

[blueldr]

In California it is almost impossible to find gasoline sans alcohol and it is illegal (so I'm told) to use it as a motor fuel on the public highways. I also note that California has more BMW automobiles and motorcycles than any other state. I have not yet heard of any big problems involved with the commonly dispensed fuel and I see a lot of BMW cars and bikes on the road. I don't know anyone with a power boat, but I've never heard of any problems with fuel.
None of my small engine equipment, mostly generators, has had a problem so far.
The man who maintains my yard has a number of tools operated with small engines, mostly two cycle, and he advises me that he has had no fuel problems with regular pump gas.

[mit]

How come it isn't affecting cars or is it?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Cars, for the most part today, are fuel injected, used often enough the gas does not get stale, and has rubber and or plastic parts designed withstand the effects of ethanol.

[Brad Brady]

As Bruce mentioned, Mogas is refreshed often in a car. Not so, in an aircraft. When I flew most every day I burned nothing but Mogas. Absolutely no problems. When we had the shop fire, the 172 sat for about four months. Before I saw a problem, the carb had started leaking, and ruined the paint on the wheel pant. I have noticed that if you mix a minimum, of a quarter 100LL to three quarters Mogas, the 100LL helps stabilize the Mogas. It also helps bring the 100LL down closer to 80 octane. I have found that the best all around bet, is 100LL and TCP....Just my thoughts.

[C170U2]

Cost me a generator

[GAHorn]

bluEldr, about 10 years ago, when ethanol first appeared in street-gas, the boat owners who had inboards with fiberglass fuel tanks found their carbs and fuel systems ruined with a milky/sticky clay-like substance. It was the resin which had been leached out of the fiberglass tanks. The boat magazines all carried articles and warnings about it, recommending that inboard owners only purchase fuel from marinas (which presumeably did not market ethanol-laced fuel.) Those owners (like lucky me) with all metal fuel tanks buried in the floorboards didn't have that problem. The problem metal tank guys had was excessive water which condensed in the fuel due to proximity of all that humidity in the lake being attracted to the ethanol.

The problem I had was ruined Solex carbs on my Volvo sterndrive from ethanol-laced fuel which sat over the winter and which absorbed water and corroded. I had to clean out the entire system. Now I run only Avgas thru it the last motorboat trip of the season and store it with Avgas over the winter. My small engines are drained and/or stored with Avgas, except a few sm. engines which get occasional use, and those also get the Sta-Bil treatment. This is due to the tiller whose steel fuel tank rusted completely thru from absorbed water, and the generator which rusted out it's carb bowl and clogged the jets with rust particles, and rotted the rubber gaskets and supply hose. The inside of the tank-roof also developed rust. (My N-Ford tractor also developed a rusty tank, which I am treating with a 3-foot piece of chain I let rattle around inside the tank, which scrubs out the rust and lets it deposit and settle in the gascolator bowl. I throw out a large tablespoon of rust from the glass bowl at least once a month.

[blueldr]

Bruce,
Ask Gates Rubber co. when they started making one kind of fuel hose for petroleum products and another kind for gasoline containing ethanol.

There's always a lot of humidity down there in Texas. I never could convince my swamp cooler to really put out when I lived down there.

It would be interestng to see the increased rate of small engine carburetor replacement since the addition of ethanol to our mogas.

George,
Your ethanol in the mogas problems have me crying tears as big as horse turds, and I'm beginning to become concerned. Over what, I don't know.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

BL, I mention rubber but I should have also mention plastic or vinyl which is what is used for fuel lines on most small engines like weed eaters today. Ethanol hardens these products and they break or devolve. Yes if you buy more expensive quality products they likely have more ethanol proof lines but most people are buying from the bog box stores and those products, event from brand name manufacturers, are cheap.

I'd say the answer you are getting from your lawn care guy is because he doesn't know any better. He takes for granted the engines are not going to last and or he takes for granted he's going to have to replace fuel lines. His stuff also doesn't sit like most folks and he is probably replacing it anyway at a rate much higher than the average consumer. He probably is also buying quality to begin with.

Besides the fuel lines, water and internal corrosion as George and other have pointed out are the death of most small engines for consumers. BL I see this all the time as my airplane partner repairs them for customers rather than throw them away as he is old school though about 15 years your junior. BTW all of the small engine equipment I have I got for free after he or I repaired it because people just give it to him in disgust. His current inventory of chain saws and weed wackers and even riding mowers is about 15 or twenty each.

Here is the scenario. They buy a new piece of equipment and use it one or two seasons. It won't run so they bring it to him. He fixes it buy cleaning out the carb and replacing fuel lines. They take it home and two months later it won't start again for corrosion in the carb. They bring it back and he cleans the carb. They take it home and it doesn't start next time they need it. They go buy a new one and drop off the old one to him for his effort helping them. And the cycle starts all over again.

I run Sta-bil religiously in all my small engine equipment year round because I never know when the last time I'll run something for the season will be.

[toms170b]

Do not run fuel with any amount of ethanol in your aircraft.
The Petersen Auto fuel STC specifications does not allow it for both potential water mixing and engine damage.
Check out the Petersen site fuel testing tab

http://www.autofuelstc.com/fuel_testing.phtml

If you are running autofuel, I have found this site helpful in sourcing ethanol free gasoline. It lists all the stations selling ethanol free fuel

http://pure-gas.org/

And Always test the fuel before dumping in the wings.

[170C]

I can tell you that I have experienced the bad results of mogas w/ ethanol in some leaf blowers, chain saws, etc. Its bad stuff. Now only 100LL in them! If one put it in a plane and burned it out then replaced it with 100LL you might not have any issues. Having to mix two types of fuel in a plane would be a real pain unless you had both types at your hangar.

Dick, you didn't have good results with your swamp coolers in San Antonio, but had you been from Abilene westward to El Paso or in the panhandle you would have found that they worked well. They still build new houses in El Paso with swamp coolers. Of course with 7% humidity one would expect them to work well.

[n3833v]

Food for thought about our great ethanol production.
http://news.msn.com/us/the-secret-dirty ... power-push

John

[juredd1]

So if ethanol laced fuel is the issue here then I eliminate that issue by using ethanol free MoGas as long as the MoGas is used in prior to ......6 weeks or is mix with more fresh gas. For me it is a huge inconvenience to travel to the local airport (80 miles away, round trip by car or 40 minutes away round trip by plane) to get a few gallons of AvGas at a time. I will try to mix as I can but for now I will be using the ethanol free flavor until I can figure out how to make this work. Although I did the food coloring test on the 91 octane and the 87 octane with the ethanol 10% label and got the same results. The food coloring did not mix and just dropped to the bottom. I need to buy some 87 from where else so I can really see what it does if it has ethanol in the fuel.

I am not taking the concerns posted here lightly but everyone seems to have different experiences with MoGas. George, bad experiences, Dick, not so bad. My uncle has used it for many years with no issues or not pointing back to MoGas. I don't want to spend any more green than I have to for fuel or repairs nor do I want my engine to quick me at the least convenient time.

I understand the MoGas can get old but can say one Generator and one weed wacker issue is all that I have experienced and neither small engine shop told me it was due to ethanol laced fuel, it was due to leaving old fuel in the system without a stabilizer. My 10 year old boat with an inboard motor sets for close to 9 months out of the year and has never failed to start on the next year with stabilizer and without (laziness). It could happen next year.

I did a quick search but did not see when AvGas come about but was it after the time these planes were built. If so then what fuel did these planes run so well on back in the 50's? I am asking this as a questions as why not to use ethanol free fuel. I am sure the standards for AvGas are better than MoGas but were they better for MoGas back then if that is the type fuel used?

Justin

[n3833v]

I used mogas for a few years until ethanol came into play then quit using mogas. I have friends that use ethanol free mogas and have no problems. I do know that small engine systems with intermittant use do have extreme problems with the ethanol.

John