Aviation Battery Thoughts

[juredd1]

Forgive my ignorance but if you think back you probably asked some silly airplane questions sometime in your life.

So my annual was performed yesterday and it was discovered that my girl was carrying a Odyssey brand battery which does say anything about being an aviation battery, thus was kicked out. Which kind of brings me to my question. What or who decides what battery is legal to have in my 170B. The Gill G-25 (The battery listed in my log books as the last installed battery) battery that I ordered to replace this battery says FAA-PMA on the front of the battery. Does this make it legal to put in my plane? For crying out loud it's battery. The Odyssey happens to be a sealed battery so it won't leak out if I fly upside down, what else could you ask for. It's been in there for going on at least 14 months and has started my plane in the middle of the winder without missing a beat. It got missed during the pre-buy inspection of the seller played a little swap out after the pre-buy. I guess I have some questions in this post but mostly just frustrated to have to spend the $161 bucks when the battery in the plane is obviously capable of job.

My second thought is it was time to replace the ELT battery. It's two years old. Sets there in the plane pretty much unused except for the two annuals it gets tested before it's marked as "mandatory replacement". Heck fire I can buy a Duracell alkaline battery with a shelf life of 10 years guaranteed. The outside of the battery pulled from my ELT states it an alkaline battery pack. Can they not make a ELT battery pack to last 10 years, wait that means they only get my 45 dollars every 10 years instead of every 2. I know it's only $206 dollars to replace these, small change in the world of airplane maintenance but it's still 206 dollars.


Justin

[hilltop170]

That Odyssey battery you took out of your 170 is probably the best quality battery you could have. In comparison, Gills are junk. If you haven't spent the money yet, you might want to see about getting that Odyssey back in your plane. Many thousands of them are legally installed in airplanes. I have two of them installed legally but not one in the 170, it has a Concorde XC-25. Unfortunately, no one did the ground work to legally install one in your plane. What is required is to get a Form 337 Field Approval for the installation. I don't know the approval climate in your area but it can be done, depending on which model Odyssey you have.

I just checked the West Coast Battery website, the folks that sell Odyssey batteries, and went to their Aircraft section. The SBS-16 is now actually approved in the C-170 if that is the model you have, otherwise a field approval is required.

http://www.odysseybatteries.com/batteries/sbsj16.htm

[flyboy122]

I agree. Get a 337 for the Odyssey and sell the Gill to someone you don't like. I'm willing to bet a few guys have already 337'd this battery for the 170. I wonder if the association has a copy online?

I seem to recall the SBS-16 was only approved with the Atlee Dodge box, but could be wrong. It would be great if it was approved for stock box installations!

As for the ELT, a while back someone came out with an ELT that used 4 D or C cell Duracells. I want to say the life was 5 years, but then you just went to the hardware store and spent $10 for more Duracells. Not sure if that ELT is still available, but regardless if you are swapping ELT's get a 406 MHz unit anyway. Your loved ones will appreciate it. I think most of those use Lithium based batteries that last in the 5 year range.

DEM

[juredd1]

Well dang!!! Should have posted before buying the freaking Gill. Kind of frustrated that my IA didn't suggest this to me. He said that this battery would likely out live the Gill batteries so he feels the same about the Gill's but didn't suggest the field approval.

When I said the battery was kicked out it wasn't literal, just yet. It's just the IA said it needed to be replaced to get legal. It's still in the plane just ordered the Gill last night wanted to get it in before the cowling went back on but thanks to Aircraft Spruce's quick turn around time it has already shipped otherwise I would cancel the order.

The Odyssey that I have is a PC680 so I'm guessing the field approval would be needed.

Can you give me a bit more detail on the 337 process. Where do I start for a field approval?

I questioned my IA about getting a field approval for the 26" goodyears I had on as well and he just mumbled something and said unless it has steel axles I wouldn't get it approved. He checked and said I had solid aluminum ones and now my 6.00x6 are back on. Not happy about that one either.

Thanks for the replies.
Justin

[hilltop170]

That PC680 is a great battery, don't throw it away! Save it, put it in your garden tractor to keep it charged, and get your field approval. If your IA won't do it, see if Del Lehmann in Mena, (479) 437-3333, can get the approval. Then, in 18 months when the Gill goes dead, you'll be ready to put it back in and run it for another 6-8 years.

I have had a PC680 starting the high compression 275hp O520 in my C-180 since 1997 and the second battery is just now starting to show signs of weakness. It could last 10-12 years starting the 170. When the first PC680 started to struggle with starting the O520 in 2005, I put it in my garden tractor and it still spins it great. They are wonderful batteries.

The main reason the firewall installations had to have a new battery box on most Cessnas is they were not originally firewall installations. Since the 170 already has a battery box on the firewall, it should be easy to come up with the right spacers to stabilize the PC680 in the box for the field approval.

Good luck.

[GAHorn]

Keep in mind that the main purpose of a ship's battery is NOT to start the engine!

The main purpose is to provide an emergency supply of electricity in the event of generated electrical failure.

This means that an airplane in instrument conditions at night will need a 30 minute supply to power all essential equipment to get an instrument approach conducted. This is perhaps a more demand on the battery than the 20 seconds needed to start, despite the difference in short-term current.

I'm not at all confident that all local FSDO inspectors have the electrical knowledge to calculate what a non-aviation battery's capacity might be after a few years service merely starting small engines. (An aircraft engine's starting-effort is relatively small task from the Amp-Hr side of things.)

The average pilot is usually satisfied with his battery the minute the engine is started and couldn't care less if it could keep the avionics and lights working for 30 minutes in flight.

But...It is the reserve capacity of the battery which is more important in aircraft useage.

[hilltop170]

The West Coast Battery website listed above has all the battery specs for each model battery.

[voorheesh]

I don't mean to throw a wet blanket on this discussion but there is more than meets the eye to the subject of batteries for aviation use. George brought up one important aspect, capacity. There are other issues including ability to withstand vibration, temperature, altitude, venting, crashworthiness, installation criteria, the list goes on. Aviation batteries should meet TSO-C173 (or equivalent standard) or have an STC issued with equivalent safety standards. An aircraft battery with a PMA has a list of aircraft it is eligible to be installed in. I can see obtaining a field approval to install that battery in a similar aircraft not on the list but it would have to be demonstrated that it is appropriate. You may find an old field approval for a non-TSOd battery and say "Hey that 337 is approved data". I would be careful here. As George points out, there are significant safety issues associated with an aircraft electrical system and you can't just pull off to the side of the road if you experience a serious malfunction. There are plenty of 337s out there that are not worth the paper they were written on. Our aircraft are certified to meet safety standards and we should pay attention to them. A battery that is excellent for automotive or ground use, may not be appropriate in the air. I apologize if this comes off as negative but wanted you to consider another point of view. Be careful.

[voorheesh]

I happened to read my post again and have to add that I am not condemning anyone for their choice of a battery. I realize that some of these non aviation batteries are really good and I can appreciate how a pilot would make that choice. I think someone asked about legality so take my observations for what they are worth and know there are many differing opinions. If you ever get bored, check out a battery thread on a motorcycle forum .

[hilltop170]

If you read the Odyssey info provided by West Coast Batteries, I think most of your concerns would be addressed.

I am NOT advocating buying ANY battery made for ANY purpose from ANY source including Pep Boys or Walmart. Some Odyssey batteries do have PMA with thousands of them installed on aircraft. I have yet to hear of one criticism of an Odyssey battery in an airplane other than they all haven't been approved for use so far. I will never buy another flooded cell battery.

[wingnut]

Juredd1, here is my thoughts on Gill batteries, for what it's worth..........Put the Gill in that tractor that likes to run over airplanes. It can never start itself again
My real opinion is that Gill are not "junk", they have just fallen behind (way behind) the technology curve. I put a Gill G35 in my Jubilee several years ago (so long I can't remember, but about 6 or 7) it was just shy of 2 years old when I removed it from an aircraft because the owner wanted a Concorde. So, this Gill is 8, maybe 9 years old still going strong.
It is not my intent to promote the Gill as a tractor battery, only to promote N series tractors as excellent previously vetted transplant recipients 12 volt conversion is easy

Can we get a tractor section on the forum?

[hilltop170]

Del, have you been to Oklahoma again?

[juredd1]

Richard,

It looks to me like whoever put the PC680 in my 170 did a pretty good job of putting some material in there to keep it stabilized well. Looks like a hard piece of foam of some type. Of course everyone has an opinion so someone else might not think so.

George,

I had not considered the reserve capacity of a batter, the PC680 displays on the top of the battery a reserve capacity of 24 minutes. I am sure that time will depend on how any items are pulling power from the battery during that 24 minutes. Probably something on the site Richard mentions that might give those detail. Since I don't do any sort of instrument flying and very little night flying (no lights at my grass field) those factors won't be such an issue for me unless there is some legal requirement to have that 30 minute reserve capacity. I don't remember one but I took that test several years ago.

Voorheesh,

All valid points you make and I do appreciate your input. Again I get George's point about needing a decent reserve capacity in case of alternator or generator failure but can't imagine a battery vibrating any less in a ATV running 30 to 40 mph down a rough dirt road and on things like off road trails or a jet ski skipping down the rough lake for instance. Not sure what the PC680 is for specifically but just some thoughts on that. Temperature...I am sure it gets pretty hot in that cowling on a hot summer day but more than any other air cools machine...I don't know. I get altitude changes maybe, jumping from cold to warm air in a short time span but if the idea is just the altitude it's used in, I have run my ATV longer in higher altitudes than I have my plane (I like to see the scenery when I fly), again different situations for different flyers. Venting...the PC680 is a sealed battery where the Gill is what I don't consider a sealed battery since it has openings in which to put the acid, does that mean that the sealed is going to have issues with big altitude changes, I don't know but for crash-worthiness it would seem that a sealed battery would be less likely to pop one of those tops and lose it's contents but that may not be your concern. As for installation criteria it is obvious the Gill fits the battery box a bit better as there don't have to be any spacers for that install.

Wingnut,

Nice to hear from you...It's funny that you mentioned a Jubilee tractor, that is just devil that almost took out my plane...my Uncles Ford Jubilee. As for the 337 and field approval for the Odyssey battery. Is that something that you could help me with (PM me if that would be better)? I know your a busy man with lots of irons in the fire but thought I would ask since Richard kindly suggested it. I have no idea what it entails, in relation to time or money or pretty much anything.

With all that I used a Gill battery in my C152 for the full 10 years that I owned it. I think I replaced the battery once, but also had lots of issues getting the plane started in the winter before it went dead. That also got better after installing a heater on the bottom of the oil pan. Don't recall how long the Gill was in the 152 before I had to buy the new one and don't recall how long it has been in there when I purchased the plane. So I didn't have any real reservations about the Gill quality until my IA expressed his dislike of them and I didn't want to fork out the $161 for the new one since the Odyssey working very well for me. I was just trying to get legal since I don't want to give my insurance company any loop holes.

Thanks again to all for you input,
Justin

[wingnut]

Del, have you been to Oklahoma again?

No, just sleep deprivation. I meant everything I said, although at the time I wrote it I was unaware that Juredd1'a tractor was a Jubilee. Coincidence

[wingnut]

Wingnut,
Nice to hear from you...It's funny that you mentioned a Jubilee tractor, that is just devil that almost took out my plane...my Uncles Ford Jubilee. As for the 337 and field approval for the Odyssey battery. Is that something that you could help me with (PM me if that would be better)? I know your a busy man with lots of irons in the fire but thought I would ask since Richard kindly suggested it. I have no idea what it entails, in relation to time or money or pretty much anything.
Justin

The first thing to do is call the manufacturer and see if they have any suggestions on approvals. They should be able to at least point you to a previously approved 337. We should not re-invent the wheel here, and because I have never installed an Odyssey battery I should not be your choice of IA's to assist you with the approval process. How close are you to Clinton?