Rear Seat Removal

[bagarre]

The rear seat incorporates rear occupant seat-belt attachments and I believe that makes it "structural". (The rear seat belts do not attach directly to the airframe as many others do.)

May need a placard:
"No passengers may sit in the back seat if the back seat is not present."

[N3531C]

Back seat comes out, back seat goes in, back seat comes out, back seat goes in, what the he.....
Scott

[GAHorn]

Anyone who is bored can take the time to re-read/research the background of this discussion and find that certain examples of Officialdom have interrupted the pleasure of operators who choose to enjoy the use of their aircraft.
This rear-seat-removal question was posed and it was related that a certain FSDO office opined that (to the consternation of the gov't aircraft operator) a rear seat removal was a major alteration and required documentation upon a Form 337, and further, that if the aircraft were frequently operated in "convertible" configurations that the form should so indicate, in order to relieve the pilot of task of documenting the seating effect on wt/bal (which, per FARs, required an "appropriately rated mechanic or repairman.")

I attempted to get other FSDO representatives involved and for the most part they were reluctant. One of our own TIC170A Members who works for the agency researched the question and obtained an opinion that the rear seat may be removed as a minor alteration. (Hoo-Ray! it does not require a Form 337.) Unfortunately a minor alteration still requires a "logbook" entry by a certificated (appropriately rated) mechanic or repairman.

Now the question becomes one of formality (if indeed in the eyes of most of us, it didn't always) to whit: Does the removal/re-installation of the rear seat require an entry each time the aircraft is so-altered?
I suspect it might and if so, then the SAT-FSDO original suggestion may not be as weird as at first-glance.

To most of us it's a simple matter of just doing it an let others worry....and to some it's an interesting nit-pik.
Personally, I'd run the risk of getting caught and letting officialdom trouble itself about enforcement, if they have the time for it....
In any case, if someone asks a question...either out of curiosity,...or boredom...this forum-thread exists....and at least it produced an official, written rebuttal document.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

George that is a pretty good summary.

I'm of the opinion that, until relieved by some official method, a log entry would have to be made upon removal of the seat for the purpose of operation without it because that would be the first minor alteration. And then once again should the set be reinstalled for the purpose of operation.

I hold the same opinion as you that should I remove the seat for operation I will not it in the log and calculate a W&B under my pilots certificate and then let the chips fall where they may should it be questioned.

I also plan to take the following step next time i see my IA. I plane to have him document in the logs that the seat was removed and document the change in configuration. Then I will document the seat installation and change of configuration back when the seat is installed and removed for flight which ever the case maybe. This is the practice according to FAR for ski installation. The first installation of skis is required to be accomplished by an A&P and there after so long as the configuration doesn't change, can be swapped on and off with a log entry by a pilot owner operator with log entry of course.

BTW to make this perfectly clear this entire thread has nothing to do with a owner operator removing and replacing the seat so long as the plane is not operated in between with out the seat and us operated under part 91. This scenario is covered under 43.13 app A Preventive Maintenance.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Oh and should you think this discussion is limited to 170 owners you would be incorrect. Just last night on the ramp two Cherokee Warrior owners were discussing whether they could remove their rear seat to fit bikes in the back.

[n3833v]

Do we have the weight and arm in the owners manual for reference?

John

[170C]

Geeze, I wonder if we have set a record of the number of pages on any one subject There has been a lot of technical data as well as a lot of opinions (mine included) on this subject and its interesting to see what has been said. I wonder if someone is in a position to boil it all down to something definitive
After reading everything it appears to me that as a owner/pilot I can remove my back seat and reinstall it for the purpose of routine maintenance such as preparing for an annual inspection, etc. Not sure that such activity requires a logbook entry or not However I cannot remove the seat (rear or co-pilot) and legally fly my plane without a logbook entry signed off by an IA. Seems the best route may be just to fly with it in or out as desired and not worry with the legalities. Ask for forgiveness if caught in a ramp check Not that it makes it legal, but I suspect more fly without being totally legal (without the back seat) than do so with all the correct logbook entries

[N2255D]

Do we have the weight and arm in the owners manual for reference?

John

From the TCDS A799
Maximum Weight 2200 lb. Normal Category
1900 lb. Utility Category
No. of Seats 4 (2 at +36), (2 at +70)
Maximum Baggage 120 lb. (+95)

I would use +36 for a front seat + 70 for the rear seat and weigh them when removed

Let the "discussions" begin.

[T. C. Downey]

Do we have the weight and arm in the owners manual for reference?

John

From the TCDS A799
Maximum Weight 2200 lb. Normal Category
1900 lb. Utility Category
No. of Seats 4 (2 at +36), (2 at +70)
Maximum Baggage 120 lb. (+95)

I would use +36 for a front seat + 70 for the rear seat and weigh them when removed

Let the "discussions" begin.

That's what I'd do. when figuring the W&B for the flight, I'd use the actual weight of the material in the rear seat position and subtract the actual weight of the seat removed, and use the 70" arm to compute the moment for the graph in the owners manual.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

After reading everything it appears to me that as a owner/pilot I can remove my back seat and reinstall it for the purpose of routine maintenance such as preparing for an annual inspection, etc. Not sure that such activity requires a logbook entry or not

Frank, ANYTIME maintenance is performed there must be a log entry by someone. Who has to sign depends on the maintenance performed. If the aircraft is flown under part 91 and the owner operator has a Private pilot license or higher, they can perform certian preventive maintenance AND IT ALL MUST BE LOGGED.

How ever you must have (in most cases) at least an A&P (NOT with IA) to make an alteration to an aircraft and that is what removing a seat and not reinstalling it before operation is, a minor alteration. The A&P must log ALL WORK PERFORMED.

It is simple ALL work must be logged by a person authorized to do the work.

There will be a test at convention Frank.

[170C]

Guess I better hit the books

[T. C. Downey]

After reading everything it appears to me that as a owner/pilot I can remove my back seat and reinstall it for the purpose of routine maintenance such as preparing for an annual inspection, etc. Not sure that such activity requires a logbook entry or not

Frank, ANYTIME maintenance is performed there must be a log entry by someone. Who has to sign depends on the maintenance performed. If the aircraft is flown under part 91 and the owner operator has a Private pilot license or higher, they can perform certian preventive maintenance AND IT ALL MUST BE LOGGED.

How ever you must have (in most cases) at least an A&P (NOT with IA) to make an alteration to an aircraft and that is what removing a seat and not reinstalling it before operation is, a minor alteration. The A&P must log ALL WORK PERFORMED.

It is simple ALL work must be logged by a person authorized to do the work.

There will be a test at convention Frank.

Well almost,, when the maintenance preformed is IAW directions of an inspection or AD compliance it can be logged as such.

Example... is the ELT inspection required by 91.207. when the A&P completes the inspection they only need to state the inspection is completed. they are not required to state they removed the ELT to complete the inspection.

Same goes for the annual inspection, The inspector only needs to make the statement found in FAR 43, they are not required to state they removed all the equipment that is required to complete the inspection.

Discrepancy repair---- Your right on the money.
Reconfiguring the aircraft to meet flight requirements.:
needs to be logged in Part 91, not so in part 135.

[GAHorn]

[... If the aircraft is flown ..and the owner operator has a Private pilot license or higher, ....

There will be a test at convention Frank.

IN the interest of keeping this discussion-thread to a reasonable length.... U.S. pilots do not have pilot licenses.

[n3833v]

So now we don't fly, we drive them.

[busav8or]

Hey, where'd they get that picture of my wife's luggage for a weekend trip?!