ADS-B Out Mandate: Options

[Karl Towle]

I haven't been able to find anyone discussing the Jan 1, 2020 deadline for ADS-B Out installation yet, so I thought I'd throw this out and see who else is thinking about it.

First, here is a short piece dispelling myths about the issue:
http://www.flyingmag.com/avionics-gear/ ... -b-mandate

Since the ADS-B out will be needed in any airspace where Mode C is needed today, opting not to equip will drastically restrict where we can fly - especially those of us living near busy airspace (think DFW Class B). Also, filing/flying IFR makes it necessary.

The big rub is that a WAAS GPS position is needed so the transmitted coordinates will be accurate enough. Early implementations depended on other avionics to supply the position, so an expensive panel GPS unit (like the GNS 430/530) was a prerequisite. I'm guessing not too many of us are flying our 170s with such equipment in the panel.

Fortunately various manufacturers are bringing systems to the market that incorporate their own built-in WAAS accurate GPS receiver. One that I've discovered is made by NavWorx based in Rowlett, Texas. Their box for certified aircraft can be found here: http://www.navworx.com/ADS600BDescription.php

I've have found them to be very patient and helpful during many calls, answering a variety of questions. The problem at the moment is that the C170 is not on the AML for their STC. Since all the other Cessna singles are covered, I'm assured this is an oversight that will be soon corrected.

They sell a package that includes the unit, plus antennas, a transponder monitor, and a WiFi adapter. So, with their system, one can purchase all the equipment required for around $2400. There are required distances between their antenna, and already existing transponder, DME, and other belly-mounted antennas, and short coax runs are preferred. Thus, the plan would be to mount their box just behind the baggage compartment along side where the ELT is commonly mounted. You install a GPS antenna on the top of the fuselage (or a splitter to use an existing antenna), and the ADS-B out antenna on the belly, far enough aft. There would be a service connector that allows configuration through a temporary laptop connection. Their TransMon device clamps around the antenna coax from our existing Mode 3A/C transponders, so there is no need to replace all that gear either. Finally, we need a display, which can be one of the expensive MFDs on the market, various GPS displays, OR your own iPad via the previously mentioned WiFi adapter. The only problem is that they currently do NOT support ForeFlight. The reason I am told is that ForeFlight is charging significant licensing fees to manufacturers who want to display anything overlaying their software. So, from my research, FlyQ by Seattle Avionics (which is supported) seems like a close runner up, if not even better in some respects to ForeFlight. Since the NavWorx device is classified as a UAT, you get all the ADS-B In data for free, just like many of us have been getting through devices such as the Stratus - which would no longer be needed. One other really attractive feature is their AutoStealth mode, which may be exclusive to this manufacturer.

So, here are some questions:
1) Has anyone else done any research into how to equip for the ADS-B out, and have you found any solutions that look more attractive in terms of price and/or functionality?
2) I'd like to hear from FlyQ users. How do you like that product. I'm especially interested in comparisons to the big dog; ForeFlight from those who have used both.
3) Has anyone had any experience yet with the NavWorx product?

[DaveF]

Like you I have no WAAS GPS and I was planning to go with the NavWorx for ADSB. Except for the Foreflight issue it seemed to be the best all-around choice. But then my son bought a Stratus and my transponder started showing its age. Now that I also need a transponder I'm thinking about the Appareo Stratus transponder, which will give me 1090ES ADSB out.

Flying magazine has been a big cheerleader for ADSB for a while. Back when all ADSB equipment cost at least $5000 they claimed prices would never come down, but they have, by a lot.

[Karl Towle]

Like you I have no WAAS GPS and I was planning to go with the NavWorx for ADSB. Except for the Foreflight issue it seemed to be the best all-around choice. But then my son bought a Stratus and my transponder started showing its age. Now that I also need a transponder I'm thinking about the Appareo Stratus transponder, which will give me 1090ES ADSB out.

Two features have me focused on the NavWorx box. 1) Their box will provide the ADS-B In function, thus eliminating the need for sticking the Stratus inside my windshield, and 2) Their AutoStealth feature. I really do not want to be flying around transmitting a unique aircraft ID continuously. I like my privacy. Not having to add another antenna to the belly would be a big plus though.

[moss farmer]

I have been using FlyQ for about three years and really like it. They are always improving it with input from the users, especially a guy I know who is constantly requesting changes. I have Foreflight but find it less responsive and clunky to use. that is my two cents.

Ron

[wabuchanan]

Since I live and fly under the Seattle Class B airspace I figured when I bought a plane I would eventually have to bite the bullet and get the ADS-B out function. Because I live 8 miles north of SeattleAvionics I thought it would be a good program to buy since support is local, and ended up getting a great deal on FlyQ…..they had a Black Friday sale a year ago and I obtained a lifetime VFR subscription for a killer price. I bought it right after I got my medical but long before I started flying again.

I was also looking seriously at the Navworx system as well for all of the reasons stated above. Fairly inexpensive ADS-B out, and supports the iPad with its wireless option. I am loving FlyQ as my ADS-B in system, so until I bought the plane that was my plan.

I just recently bought 76C. (I have not formally introduced myself and the plane yet, but plan to soon! ) I have been busy getting settled and finishing my tailwheel endorsement. All of that story will be in a new thread for you all. The good news however, in the purchase, is that the previous owner had installed the Garmin GTX-330 Mode S transponder, although without the ADS-B module.

Thus, at this point, all I have to do to be compliant with the OUT function is send the unit to Garmin for the 1090ES module. So my plans changed during the purchase process, and I bought the Stratus for Fly-Q and used it for the flight back. That system will be my IN solution and the transponder will by my OUT solution. Although Navworx would be a cleaner overall installation, I am happy to work with what I have. I will say that I found out that it is preferred to plug both the iPad and the Stratus in to the power module at the start of the flight to keep batteries charged enroute, because if you plug them in to recharge enroute, they will hold the charge but won't charge up much at all while using the programs.

Despite Stratus saying to the contrary, it is working very well with FlyQ, as SeattleAvionics claimed it would. I apologize in that I can't compare it for you to Foreflight, as FlyQ is the only program I have experience with, and with the lifetime subscription, the only one I probably will have experience with

Best Regards,
Bill

[170C]

I am dragging my feet on this ADS-B issue, but like most will likely have to do something by 2020. One of our EAA Chapter members has installed the FreeFlight In & Out system in his Navion and is using his existing Narco AT-50 transponder. FreeFlight is located in Waco, TX and formerly operated as Trimble Avionics. They also purchased the former Terra Avionics Co form Albq, NM. One of their tech's came to our airport on his way to the AOPA's Tullahoma Flyin and checked on our member's system, and got it programmed for him. Their "out" unit sells for $1995 and the in & out system is $3995. Our guy did the installation himself (field approval), but as I understand it the complete system will take 12-15 hours to install. To get weather and traffic it will display through ForeFlight on an iPad. The Freeflight rep gave us a short talk in our chapter meeting this past Thursday and says he doesn't see costs of hardware going much lower as 2020 approaches. He thinks the issue will be finding a shop to get any mfg's hardware installed and expects shops to raise their rates ?

[Karl Towle]

I just recently bought 76C. (I have not formally introduced myself and the plane yet, but plan to soon! ) I have been busy getting settled and finishing my tailwheel endorsement.

First, welcome to the 170 world. I predict a very rewarding experience with this great airplane, and the equally great people in this association.

I am very gratified to hear the good experiences with FlyQ. Maybe one of you can tell me if they allow you to install it on two devices (for backup in case of iPad failure), and also, do they happen to support the Android type of smart phones, or tablets? ForeFlight steadfastly refuses to support any type of Android device, so if FlyQ does, that would be a neat feature.

Sounds like FlyQ "reverse engineered" the interface with the Stratus, and did it successfully. I'm guessing it would be considerably more difficult to figure out the complexities the interface going in the opposite direction. I wish NavWorx would be usable with ForeFlight, but it doesn't seem to be on the horizon just yet.

Thanks for the ideas. Keep em coming.

[flyboy122]

Prices have come down by half in the last few years. I have a feeling they have more to go. There is also talk some of big tech/retail companies (Google, Amazon, etc....) may subsidize ADS-B for GA in order to make the case their drones can fly safely in the NAS. Probably a pipe dream as the issue is a lot more complicated than that, but stranger things have happened. Since I'm not in a hurry, I'm gonna wait.

Aryana, go for the Cub. Champs are more comfortable, more civilized, more everything....but Cubs are more fun!

DEM

[Ryan Smith]

Here's my plan for the ADSB 2020 compliance deadline (which will most likely be pushed out since the Feds are behind schedule on their implementation). Just can't decide which one...

Dibs on 44C.

[GAHorn]

Why settle for a back seat? (Get the Aeronca!)

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Why settle for a back seat? (Get the Aeronca!)

Because the Cub is better :twisted. Front seats are over rated.
(looking at my signature will give you a clue why I say that)

[rollcloud]

I am looking at several options
UAT
Garmin GDL 84 coupled with my existing Garmin 320A transponder for the ADS-B out.
Garmin Aera 796 for the ADS-B in

UAT
Navworx for the out
Aera 796 for the in

ES
Stratus ESG 1090 ES & 978 UAT for the ADS-B out
Garmin Aera 796 for the ADS-B in

ES has the advantage of working in Canada.
UAt has the advantage of privacy when squaking VFR 1200

Cost varies from $2,600 to $3,400 for the black boxes. Add another $2,500 for installation labor. Then another $1,700 for the portable and you are up to a bunch of money!

[rollcloud]

One other comment on using ipads for displays in the cockpit. I have FlyQ and I like it. I have flown with it around the midwest. I have tried screen covers, glare screens and you name it. I have cranked the brightness up all the way. There are lighting conditions where the screen is almost impossible to read. I find myself trying to position it to avoid the sunlight and shade it as much as possible. It is an unnecessary distraction and interferes with see and avoid. Now if I add to this traffic and weather, I am depending on it for more. For readability I opted for the Aera 796 because it is backlit, bright and easy to read in all lighting. I only want to be able to immediately see the display. I have not found one consumer tablet display that is suitable for use in bright daylight.

[wabuchanan]

I just recently bought 76C. (I have not formally introduced myself and the plane yet, but plan to soon! ) I have been busy getting settled and finishing my tailwheel endorsement.

First, welcome to the 170 world. I predict a very rewarding experience with this great airplane, and the equally great people in this association.

I am very gratified to hear the good experiences with FlyQ. Maybe one of you can tell me if they allow you to install it on two devices (for backup in case of iPad failure), and also, do they happen to support the Android type of smart phones, or tablets? ForeFlight steadfastly refuses to support any type of Android device, so if FlyQ does, that would be a neat feature.

Sounds like FlyQ "reverse engineered" the interface with the Stratus, and did it successfully. I'm guessing it would be considerably more difficult to figure out the complexities the interface going in the opposite direction. I wish NavWorx would be usable with ForeFlight, but it doesn't seem to be on the horizon just yet.

Thanks for the ideas. Keep em coming.

Karl,
I forgot to answer your question and I apologize.

FlyQ is good for up to 5 iPads that you personally own and use. IE: not for club use and such.

They do not have any phone apps right now except charts and plates.

I got all this in the normal course of my correspondence with them, so it is fairly up to date.

Cheers!
Bill

[Avee8or]

I just put GDL84 with Flightstream Bluetooth link in 11A--it works like a charm and did not require upgrade to the existing transponder. I use Garmin pilot on iPad for display and charts. The iPad is displaying WAAS GPS data, and makes a terrific moving map. Without a panel mount GPS, I am limited to VOR/ILS approaches on the "old" nav com, but I have traffic, weather, and better awareness of what is going on around me. Yes, it is only a UAT, but not an issue as I do not plan to fly in Canada, The box is mounted in tailcone on a new shelf installed by radio shop. Very happy with results.