Adding 10 degrees flap setting to B model

lowNslow · Post by **lowNslow** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:32 pm

I can't imagine it makes much difference on T/O performance, but as Eric mentioned, would make for a more stable platform for slow flight loitering. No??

AR Dave · Post by **AR Dave** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 5:41 pm

N170BP wrote:While the 180 guys use flaps 20 for takeoff, I think
a stock engined 170 just doesn't have enough "poop" to
pull the airplane along in a climb with those big flaps
set at 20 degrees.
Bela

Bela, the engine's got the poop if the prop's got the pull!

N1478D · Post by **N1478D** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 5:43 pm

lowNslow wrote:I can't imagine it makes much difference on T/O performance, but as Eric mentioned, would make for a more stable platform for slow flight loitering. No??

WHY? I don't get it for the more stable flight. At 10 degrees the flaps create more lift than drag, at 40 degrees they create more drag than lift - what does that have to do with stable flight?

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 6:14 pm

Depends on what is meant by "stable". On my ragwing,1 or 2 notches gives me a bit lower stall speed (more margin for error) and also a more level pitch attitude for a given speed,like the 65-75 I generally use for loitering. It also seems that the ailerons are a bit less mushy feeling at that speed with the lower angle of attack the flaps give you,I guess that qualifies as "stable". It just seems to make it easier & maybe a bit safer, but ya still have to pay enough attention that you don't "moose stall".

Eric

Post by **GAHorn** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 6:22 pm

I've been through production test pilot school at British Aerospace, and I've flight instructed for 33 years, and I've stalled every airplane I've ever flown except the BAC111 (which will fall tail foremost to the ground if the stick pusher is disabled) but I've never been taught a "moose stall" ...I don't think. Either the Brits don't have mooses (if the plural of goose is geese, is the plural of moose ....meese?) or flat-landers like me don't know one when they see one.

So, Eric, make me a know-it-all.

What is a "moose stall"? (Something tells me I'm about to be had.)

N1478D · Post by **N1478D** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 7:06 pm

Here's a hint Georgie Boy! If you flew back over the beach where the girl dropped her top and circled around with your eyes bugged out and let your airspeed drop below stall, it would then be called a BOOB STALL!

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Sat Apr 24, 2004 1:56 am

N1478D wrote:Here's a hint Georgie Boy! If you flew back over the beach where the girl dropped her top and circled around with your eyes bugged out and let your airspeed drop below stall, it would then be called a BOOB STALL!

Good explanation,Joe! Essentially the same as a moose stall, but I have to say that a boob stall wold be more enjoyable!

Eric

N1478D · Post by **N1478D** » Sat Apr 24, 2004 2:11 am

Thanks Eric,

Hopefully, with only 33 years of education under his belt, Slow George won't try to jump in to the double boob stall, and then think that he is ready to fly in and out of the bush! He might go in and never come out!

Post by **GAHorn** » Sat Apr 24, 2004 3:08 am

Yeah, Joe, but once there, that'd be one time I'd try to be slow!

lowNslow · Post by **lowNslow** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:17 pm

N1478D wrote:
lowNslow wrote:I can't imagine it makes much difference on T/O performance, but as Eric mentioned, would make for a more stable platform for slow flight loitering. No??
WHY? I don't get it for the more stable flight. At 10 degrees the flaps create more lift than drag, at 40 degrees they create more drag than lift - what does that have to do with stable flight?

Joe, you would understand owning a A model with those wimpy flaps.

Most aircraft are less stable in slow flight, slow flight being just above stall speed. If you put flaps out at say 75kts, you are further from stall speed then with flaps up with a less mushy feel. It seems to me that the B model with the slotted flaps would just handle better with a little flap out.

N170BP · Post by **N170BP** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:06 pm

Just an update for anyone considering adding the extra notch
of flap to their B-model (or to anyone replacing worn parts
like I am).

Preferred (http://www.preferredairparts.com) has:

Ratchet bracket - 0510171-1 = $72.00
Latch assembly - Flap lever - 0510167 = $166.20

Premier (http://www.iwantcessnaparts.com) has:

Spring - Flap lever - 0510176 = $13.43

Premier's price for the 1st two parts (ratchet bracket &
latch assembly) were more money ($97.91 & $224.87
respectively)

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:01 am

I had to buy a replacement Cleveland wheel a few years ago,and Preferred had the best price,by far. It pays to check there if you're buying stuff they handle, I guess.

Eric

Bill Rusk · Post by **Bill Rusk** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:52 pm

Moose Stall

See AC23-733-1. This is not a simple Turn-Around-A-Point stall. It is a violent over the top spin entry due to an accelerated crossed control stall. The entry is like a snap roll over the top, very disorienting, and the spin is in the opposite direction from the turn you were in which often results in incorrect spin recovery controls.

See long thread on this subject at Supercub.org. Go to "discussions", "search", and type in Moose and Stall.

Bill

punkin170b · Post by **punkin170b** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:11 pm

The flaps 10 notch works very nicely for loitering and circling to observe an unimproved strip. You can manuever comfortably, turning with a very small radius and not have to carry nearly as much power to maintain altitude while doing it. I now have 220 hp, so I use flaps 20 all the time for takeoff. However, when I flew it with the 0-300, I felt I had better performance with flaps 10. It was probably all in my head though!

Sorry I didn't see this thread sooner. I have a sample 337 for the modification that was signed off by my FSDO without any hitches if you still need one. Just email me directly...

Matt

jcraver · Post by **jcraver** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:09 pm

I have a '54 with the 10 degree notch. It was replaced with a log book entry. As noted before it is a superseded part # for the original part, so I think a log book entry should be fine. I like the 10 degree setting. I start my take off roll with 10 degrees of flap to reduce drag. Just before the airplane starts to fly I pull it up to the 20 degree setting and pop off the runway. I pick up a little speed in ground effect and then I climb like a 180 (for about 3 seconds). The reason I start with 10 degrees is because it makes it very easy to reach the flap handle during the roll. I tried going from 0 degrees the other day and pulled a muscle in my back! Controlling the airplane is hard with your head under the panel.
jc