I am considering purchase of a 170B (without an O-300D). I would like to use it to train for instrument rating training and also keep it for a long time as I'm a dedicated taildragger pilot.
Has anyone done the IFR ticket in a 170? Are there any recommendations on avionics needed to do the job that use the limited panel space efficiently?
Thank you in advance,
David
IFR Training in a 170?
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
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Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10327
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
To get your ticket you need to demonstrate a precision and a non-precision approach.
For the precision approach besides the VOR nav you will need a glide slope and most likely a marker beacon. You could sub a IFR GPS with a certified installation or on some approaches an ADF for the marker beacon. Of course you'll most likely only need the VOR for the non-precision approach. You'll have to check with your examiner to see what approaches he is most likely to ask you to do or what is available in your area and get the equipment needed for them and make sure the examiner will not have a problem with the approaches.
I bought a Colins 251 Com, a Colins 351 Nav, a Colins 350 Glideslope, a Colins 350D Indicator, a Garmin 155 IFR GPS and an Annunciator panel two years ago at Sun N Fun for $3000 for my 170A. I'm now in the procees of installing them. I also bought a King KMA20 audio panel which has a marker beacon for $200 from Ebay. I wouldn't need the GPS except I planned to fly into an airport that only had a GPS approach.
Check to see if the Nav radio installed (the plane will have a nav radio won't it?) in the plane has or can channel a glide slope . If it doesn't already have a glide slope make sure the indicator is glide slope capable. You can do as I did and get a KMA20 audio panel (probably the cheapest solution) for the marker beacon or there plenty of used stand alone marker beacons available which might be a little smaller.
Of course there are other considerations for IFR work. Your gyros will have to work well enough. I'll have to change to a larger venturi or add another one to get more vaccume for my plane.
I will only use my 170 for light limited actual IFR work. Basiclly to get on top of a layer or down through one. you will have to decide what your comfortable doing with yours. Besides the lack of anti iceing, and equipment redundancy the pilots skill and recent experiance will most likely be the weakest link flying actual IFR in a 170.
For the precision approach besides the VOR nav you will need a glide slope and most likely a marker beacon. You could sub a IFR GPS with a certified installation or on some approaches an ADF for the marker beacon. Of course you'll most likely only need the VOR for the non-precision approach. You'll have to check with your examiner to see what approaches he is most likely to ask you to do or what is available in your area and get the equipment needed for them and make sure the examiner will not have a problem with the approaches.
I bought a Colins 251 Com, a Colins 351 Nav, a Colins 350 Glideslope, a Colins 350D Indicator, a Garmin 155 IFR GPS and an Annunciator panel two years ago at Sun N Fun for $3000 for my 170A. I'm now in the procees of installing them. I also bought a King KMA20 audio panel which has a marker beacon for $200 from Ebay. I wouldn't need the GPS except I planned to fly into an airport that only had a GPS approach.
Check to see if the Nav radio installed (the plane will have a nav radio won't it?) in the plane has or can channel a glide slope . If it doesn't already have a glide slope make sure the indicator is glide slope capable. You can do as I did and get a KMA20 audio panel (probably the cheapest solution) for the marker beacon or there plenty of used stand alone marker beacons available which might be a little smaller.
Of course there are other considerations for IFR work. Your gyros will have to work well enough. I'll have to change to a larger venturi or add another one to get more vaccume for my plane.
I will only use my 170 for light limited actual IFR work. Basiclly to get on top of a layer or down through one. you will have to decide what your comfortable doing with yours. Besides the lack of anti iceing, and equipment redundancy the pilots skill and recent experiance will most likely be the weakest link flying actual IFR in a 170.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
IFR Training in a Cessna 170?
Some considerations regarding equipping your C170 for IFR include:
1. Generator /alternator capacity - An alternator is superior to a generator especially when it comes to those long, low RPM delays at the runup pad waiting for your IFR clearance and release. Watch the generator capacity as well - some of the older models don't offer much juice!
2. A heated pitot tube is pretty much mandatory if you intend to fly in cold clouds and precipitation. Not really needed if all you intend to do is punch through a few shallow warm cloud layers.
3. An engine-powered vacuum pump would be nice to have instead of the good old venturis. I'm never quite sure, when I takeoff in a venturi-powered system, if the AH and DG are fully up to speed. I would consider it mandatory to have an electrically-powered TC / T&B to serve as a back-up to your vacuum-powered AH & DG.
Happy flying!
1. Generator /alternator capacity - An alternator is superior to a generator especially when it comes to those long, low RPM delays at the runup pad waiting for your IFR clearance and release. Watch the generator capacity as well - some of the older models don't offer much juice!
2. A heated pitot tube is pretty much mandatory if you intend to fly in cold clouds and precipitation. Not really needed if all you intend to do is punch through a few shallow warm cloud layers.
3. An engine-powered vacuum pump would be nice to have instead of the good old venturis. I'm never quite sure, when I takeoff in a venturi-powered system, if the AH and DG are fully up to speed. I would consider it mandatory to have an electrically-powered TC / T&B to serve as a back-up to your vacuum-powered AH & DG.
Happy flying!
I would also look at the DG issue. Being from a world of modern DGs or full glass cockpits, I find it very hard to deal with the old-style AN DG that remains in my 170. I hate math, and trying to come up with reciprical headings is really a chore for me if I do not have the full 360 degree presentation of the more modern DGs. While in IAH on vacation, I have found it a real challenge to take and fly headings assigned from approach using the AN DG and a panel mounted compass that I don't trust either 
John, 2734C in Summit Point, WV
Flying headings on the old AN style DG is easy, if you remember that to move the numbers to the RIGHT,...it's a right-hand turn. To move them left, ...turn left. Think about situational awareness. If you're flying heading 210, and you want to fly 330 then that's a right hand turn. If you read 210 in your AN DG window, and the numbers get bigger to the left side of the lubber-line, then to move those larger numbers to a point beneath that lubber line, it's necessary for them to move to the right,....so that's a right-hand turn.wa4jr wrote:I would also look at the DG issue. Being from a world of modern DGs or full glass cockpits, I find it very hard to deal with the old-style AN DG that remains in my 170. I hate math, and trying to come up with reciprical headings is really a chore for me if I do not have the full 360 degree presentation of the more modern DGs. While in IAH on vacation, I have found it a real challenge to take and fly headings assigned from approach using the AN DG and a panel mounted compass that I don't trust either
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russfarris
- Posts: 476
- Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 2:25 am
IFR in a 170
My 1952 170B is IFR certified. I wouldn't consider it to be overequipped - in fact, my theory is I don't want too much in the way of avionics, because I don't need to be overconfident about what kind of IFR a 170 is safely capable of.
Having referenced the prior caveats, my airplane has a KX-155 with glide slope (replaced the Narco Mark 12D, which took two months for them to fix...don't get me started
), an Apollo GX-55 moving map panel mounted GPS (VFR only, with the capability for IFR enroute and terminal), and a Narco AT-150 with blind encoder. And I almost forgot, a heated pitot tube, added earlier this year. If you fly the stock pitot in any moderate rain, water will enter the static system and cause all kinds of wacky problems. The heated mast has a water drain. I also added the Cessna plastic sump bottle, above the static port - end of problems.
If I were to fly anything more than casual IFR (if there is such a thing!)
I would seriously consider a wing leveler, such as the Century I or the Brittain, which are the only two modern autopilot makes STC'd. S-tec has yet to do a 170. (I checked.) For single pilot IFR, it is a huge workload reducer/safety device. And it sure would be nice on those long cross-countries.
By the way, I have a nine inch Super Venturi, running an RC Allen AI and a full face Standard Precision DG (with a 1969 overhaul date on the case
) that only needs resetting every 15 minutes or so. I consider a properly set-up venturi system to be superior to a vaccum pump, since I won't take off into 200 foot ceilings in ANY single engine airplane, I don't care about having them at full speed. Simple system - as long as you flying you have vaccuum...and no pump to fail. Mine works to below 60 mph.
Good luck on getting that instrument ticket...Russ Farris
Having referenced the prior caveats, my airplane has a KX-155 with glide slope (replaced the Narco Mark 12D, which took two months for them to fix...don't get me started
), an Apollo GX-55 moving map panel mounted GPS (VFR only, with the capability for IFR enroute and terminal), and a Narco AT-150 with blind encoder. And I almost forgot, a heated pitot tube, added earlier this year. If you fly the stock pitot in any moderate rain, water will enter the static system and cause all kinds of wacky problems. The heated mast has a water drain. I also added the Cessna plastic sump bottle, above the static port - end of problems.If I were to fly anything more than casual IFR (if there is such a thing!)
I would seriously consider a wing leveler, such as the Century I or the Brittain, which are the only two modern autopilot makes STC'd. S-tec has yet to do a 170. (I checked.) For single pilot IFR, it is a huge workload reducer/safety device. And it sure would be nice on those long cross-countries.
By the way, I have a nine inch Super Venturi, running an RC Allen AI and a full face Standard Precision DG (with a 1969 overhaul date on the case
) that only needs resetting every 15 minutes or so. I consider a properly set-up venturi system to be superior to a vaccum pump, since I won't take off into 200 foot ceilings in ANY single engine airplane, I don't care about having them at full speed. Simple system - as long as you flying you have vaccuum...and no pump to fail. Mine works to below 60 mph.Good luck on getting that instrument ticket...Russ Farris
The tip on the AN style DG from George is a good one. I suppose if the AN DG in my 170 were functioning OK I would think about learning to use in properly, but mine requires resetting about every 5 minutes. The idea of standardization with other airplanes as far as instruments go is appealing to me as well. Hard enough to shift gears from a CRJ to a 170 as it is. Then there is that math issue with reciprical headings I don't want to let math spoil my enjoyment of 170 flying Oh yes, then there is the issue of what I saw behind the panel the other day. I can't believe the size of the AN gyro housing behind the panel. It must weigh a ton 
Good idea to use the 170 for only light IFR work. I would have loved to have my 170 IFR certified as I circled just SE of Olive Branch, MS awaiting a rain cell to move off the field. I could see the field, but ASOS was calling 3/4 to 1 mile with 900 broken. Had I been able to use the ILS I could have landed about 15 minutes sooner and not worried about explaining it to the FAA
I don't want to let math spoil my enjoyment of 170 flying Oh yes, then there is the issue of what I saw behind the panel the other day. I can't believe the size of the AN gyro housing behind the panel. It must weigh a ton Good idea to use the 170 for only light IFR work. I would have loved to have my 170 IFR certified as I circled just SE of Olive Branch, MS awaiting a rain cell to move off the field. I could see the field, but ASOS was calling 3/4 to 1 mile with 900 broken. Had I been able to use the ILS I could have landed about 15 minutes sooner and not worried about explaining it to the FAA
John, 2734C in Summit Point, WV
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Rudy Mantel
IFR ina a 170
I almost always fly my 170 IFR on cross country trips. I have two venturis and a KX 135 with Glide Slope. And a Garmin GPS 195 which is not IFR certified but is mighty useful.
IFR makes possible many flights where VFR is impossible or "not recommended". I've never used it to shoot an ILS to minimums, in fact most flights end in visual approaches. But it sure makes the airplane much more capable.
Yesterday I used it to go to Tampa for a business meeting. It would not have been possible VFR.
Rudy
IFR makes possible many flights where VFR is impossible or "not recommended". I've never used it to shoot an ILS to minimums, in fact most flights end in visual approaches. But it sure makes the airplane much more capable.
Yesterday I used it to go to Tampa for a business meeting. It would not have been possible VFR.
Rudy
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Bill Venohr
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 1:42 pm
I'm sure there must be a typographical error in here somewhere. Perhaps Rudy meant to say he has a KX-125, since there is no KX-135. There is a KLX-135, but that is a COM/GPS with no VOR/LOC capability.
In any case, I feel that the Cessna 170/172 series is an excellent instrument trainer whether it has venturi or pump driven gyros. It is an airplane that is gentle enough to do light IFR in non-icing, non-TRW weather, as long as the ceiling is sufficiently high to allow a descent to VFR conditions in the event of engine troubles. (I'd at least like to see the ground before I smack it!) The 170 is more sensitive in pitch than the 172 due to it's beautiful round tailfeathers and control geometry. The 172 was redesigned (at least the omni-vision ones were) to have a heavier elevator and is considerably more stabil in longitude than the 170. But the 170 is otherwise just as suitable as it's younger brother (who needs a tricycle).
Since neither airplane is suitable for hard, low-ceiling IFR, or icing conditions, then a venturi equipped airplane is no problem. The gyros will have plenty of time to get spooled up before hitting the clouds. (And a sneaky instructor can hang a styrofoam coffee cup on the front of a venturi to see if the student will check his vacuum before entering the clouds. Heh-heh.)
Something the vacuum-pump crowd never thinks to do.
In any case, I feel that the Cessna 170/172 series is an excellent instrument trainer whether it has venturi or pump driven gyros. It is an airplane that is gentle enough to do light IFR in non-icing, non-TRW weather, as long as the ceiling is sufficiently high to allow a descent to VFR conditions in the event of engine troubles. (I'd at least like to see the ground before I smack it!) The 170 is more sensitive in pitch than the 172 due to it's beautiful round tailfeathers and control geometry. The 172 was redesigned (at least the omni-vision ones were) to have a heavier elevator and is considerably more stabil in longitude than the 170. But the 170 is otherwise just as suitable as it's younger brother (who needs a tricycle).
Since neither airplane is suitable for hard, low-ceiling IFR, or icing conditions, then a venturi equipped airplane is no problem. The gyros will have plenty of time to get spooled up before hitting the clouds. (And a sneaky instructor can hang a styrofoam coffee cup on the front of a venturi to see if the student will check his vacuum before entering the clouds. Heh-heh.)
Something the vacuum-pump crowd never thinks to do.