Pull Starter Replacement

[melcessna]

Will soon begin the engine overhaul. I like the nostalgia of the pull starter. The present starter has 1727 hours on it, but I've only flown it about 100 hours. All trouble free. What is the general thought regarding replacement with the current non-pull lightweight starter conversions on the market. I can put a dummy pull in the panel, but like I said, I am partial to the original. Thoughts are appreciated.

[Ryan Smith]

Michael,

Cole Hersee makes a momentary contact pull switch that would function similarly to the original pull starter that may be of interest to you. M486 is the part number. It has a silver knob that supposedly can be unscrewed, so an original knob could be installed. I am considering that route when my starter goes out.

[melcessna]

Thanks Ryan. Shame about 4567C. Really glad no one was hurt. Hope to meet you someday. Take care.

[GAHorn]

I have the original pull-starter (Delco-REmy) and it is reliable, inexpensive to rebuild/replace, plentiful, reliable, and original. If it ain’t broke don’t change it. If it is broke, fix it cheap and go fly. IMO

The NIagara 5-roller replacement clutch is the one to buy if your clutch is slipping. Easy, affordable, durable and one of our supporters.

[dguthriem]

I'm in the process of replacing my starter with the BC320 starter. It comes with a kit that includes the solenoid and a push button switch. This kit is all covered in the STC for the Starter.

I'd like to use the Cole Hersee momentary contact pull switch (M486) that others here have used rather than the push button. My A&P is concerned this will violate the STC for the starter and that at a minimum a PMA switch should be used. However, the starter is not on the essential equipment list for my 1954 170B so I'm told it does not require a PMA switch.

Does the fact that I now have an STC for the starter motor installation change the game to where I am required to use the switch that comes with the installation kit for compliance with the STC and am not allowed to use the Cole Hersee switch? If not, how can I get some sort of official letter from the FAA stating its ok to use the Cole Hersee switch so my A&P can feel comfortable installing it?

Thanks

Dan

[cessnut]

What is "the essential equipment list"? This means nothing since you are altering the aircraft's type design with an STC.

[GAHorn]

I'm in the process of replacing my starter with the BC320 starter. It comes with a kit that includes the solenoid and a push button switch. This kit is all covered in the STC for the Starter.

I'd like to use the Cole Hersee momentary contact pull switch (M486) that others here have used rather than the push button. My A&P is concerned this will violate the STC for the starter and that at a minimum a PMA switch should be used. However, the starter is not on the essential equipment list for my 1954 170B so I'm told it does not require a PMA switch.

Does the fact that I now have an STC for the starter motor installation change the game to where I am required to use the switch that comes with the installation kit for compliance with the STC and am not allowed to use the Cole Hersee switch? If not, how can I get some sort of official letter from the FAA stating its ok to use the Cole Hersee switch so my A&P can feel comfortable installing it?

Thanks

Dan

Dan, if you intend to install the BC320 starter you must have a basis of approval for that.

Unless you have some OTHER basis of approval… you must follow the instructions and materiealos specified in that STC. In other words, you must use the switch specified in that STC.

If that switch is subsequently replaced with another switch suitable for the purpose but otherwise has no “basis of approval” as a substitute, … you might consider replacing it with some other switch as a “minor alteration”. However, be aware that your next annual inspector might not agree with that alteration. (In other words, he/she might object that the STC installation and ICA’s have not been followed, and may not agree with that minor alteration. You should discuss this with that inspector prior to making the substitution.)

The only alternative which occurs to Me is to solicit a “field approval” from your FSDO …. OR to hire a DER or DAR to approve that substitute switch. One other possibility is to contact the STC holder and ask them to obtain approval for that switch to be included in the STC.

Good luck.

[dguthriem]

@GAHorn Thank you for stepping me through this and taking the time to explain the process. It sounds like if my IAP agrees its a "minor alteration" I should be able to switch the switch. I suspect he won't see it as a minor alteration. A field approval seems extreme for a switch but that may be my only option. I'd really like to avoid putting new holes in my panel.

Dan

[GAHorn]

@GAHorn Thank you for stepping me through this and taking the time to explain the process. It sounds like if my IAP agrees its a "minor alteration" I should be able to switch the switch. I suspect he won't see it as a minor alteration. A field approval seems extreme for a switch but that may be my only option. I'd really like to avoid putting new holes in my panel.

Dan

Where do you plan to install the Push-button switch the STC calls for? wouldn’t a logical place be the same location you removed your Pull-to-Start Cable? (likely where you had-planned your alternate switch?? Alternatively, you might install the Key-start model instead.)

https://bandc.com/wp-content/uploads/20 ... 3_revE.pdf

[dguthriem]

Appreciate the suggestion of the key switch. I plan on installing the STC push button where the current pull start knob is. I think I'll have to enlarge the hole. If I were to use the key start switch then I have an empty hole where the pull start knob was.

I really want to install the pull start momentary contact Cole Hersee switch and replace the switch knob with the original pull start knob. I just want to minimize the change from stock. I suppose it is crazy to get too worked up over it but I really do think it qualifies as a minor modification and I can't seem to convince my A&P of that. Field approval seems like a headache just because I want this switch. I'd rather be flying.

[GAHorn]

It’s a simple matter. Ask your FSDO mx inspector if they will agree with you that the switch change you desire is a “minor alteration”.

Also, don’t be afraid to contact the BC Starter folks and suggest the Pull-switch for a modification to their STC… because it will certainly comply with the existing placard in the pull-cable-knob location….. AND…. they doubtlessly have a good working relationship with their FAA Principal- Inspector. It’s quite possible that with a simple phone call and a part-number their inspector might approve that switch as a suitable alternative.
When WE needed approval for an alternate prop spinner for our engine STC… Bruce Fenstermacher took that under his own initiative and made that request (possibly with a simple phone call IIRC…and it was Approved! So, it’s quite possible the same can occur in this matter.)
Sometimes all it takes is ASK.

My opinion is what you pay for it…but it seems pretty minor to me since it’s not a safety-of-flight issue. (If it doesn’t start you ain’t goin’ flyin’.)

(Of course, in MY opinion,…. I spent $40 for brushes and bushings and kept my original Delco-Remy pull-starter rather than $1700 plus labor for a “lightweight” starter…. (This could change for some future owner if/when those clutches are no longer supported. I believe Niagara has stopped overhauling and mfr’g them.)

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

The push button momentary switch provided with the STC must be wired in 22 ga wire circuit between the solenoid and a 5 amp breaker at the bus bar, according to the STC instructions. It is unknown what the rating of this push button momentary switch is. But the load is limited by the fuse at 5 amps. The Cole Hersee M486 switch is rated at 10 amps at 12vdc. Cole Hersee is a major manufacturer of quality electrical devices, not a cheap Chinese switch manufacturer. Cole Hersee switches are found in many automobiles of the 40s and 50s when things were made to last.

As an A&P with IA, I'd have no problem substituting a M486 for the supplied push button switch. It is a minor deviation hardly worth noting though I would in the log entry.

It is a shame many A&Ps today don't have the knowledge necessary to make a call like this. Or they are too busy with the black and white repairs and parts replacement to bother to even think about such a change. And why should they, there is plenty of work with not much thought required. And it is not getting any better as time goes on.

[n2582d]

Having one of these switches for my B&C starter I have been of the same opinion as Bruce — installing it should be a minor alteration. I can see Blueldr rolling in his grave reading this discussion; to a practical guy like him, it wouldn’t be worth a second thought to consider this a minor alteration.

IMG_1389.jpeg

The switch is an elegant solution where the goal is to have a modern light starter and yet maintain the panel’s original appearance. The existing “Pull to Start” label doesn’t even need to be modified. My thinking has been that this is exactly the type of scenario that AC 23-27 “Parts and Materials Substitution for Vintage Aircraft” addresses. However, one thing this Advisory Circular requires of parts such as this is that it meets some sort of industry standard — SAE, UL, AN, MS, etc. So I see on an Amazon listing that it meets UL, culus, and IP54 specs.

IMG_1390.jpeg

Here “culus” is not referring to the derogatory Latin term for one’s exhaust port, but an acronym for “Canada UL USA”. So I wrote Tech Support at Littelfuse, the company that bought out Cole Hersee, asking them to confirm that this switch meets some sort of industry standard as the Amazon listing claimed. They sent the Cole Hersee print of this switch dated March 23, 1950. To my question they responsed, “… I am not happy to tell you that to my knowledge none of that is true. This is a 75 year old design that was last revised in 1972. The print is still hand drawn and not on CAD. In 1972, many of the specs such as the IEC spec that defines IP levels were not yet released.” So while the common sense side of me says this should be a minor alteration, I don’t think that conclusion can be drawn from reading AC 23-27. So far, I’ve been unable to find a more modern momentary, normally open, pull on switch which meets an industry standard.

[GAHorn]

Gary, While I have also agreeed previously that this switch “swithceroo” is a Minor Alteration…. I don’t think it is the intent of AC23-27 to substitute automotive parts for aircraft parts which are commonly or easily available. I believe the intent is to provide an avenue toward airworthiness using certain automotive parts, etc., when those original parts are not commonly available.

An example might be that the bushings/bearings/brushes of the original Delco-Remy aircraft starter motor are no longer supplied from Aero-parts houses such as Textron, Aviall or Spruce, etc etc…. then the identical automotive Delco-Remy starter bushings/bearings/brushes may be substituted.

(I admit, however, that I don’t search very long or very hard for those brushes at Textron or Aviall, etc…. and find their equivalents at NAPA rather quickly.)

[cessnut]

I agree that this is most likely a minor alteration. I agree with George that AC23-27 was not intended to replace parts in approved STCs. It is very helpful for maintaining some of these old airplanes for which parts are not available. This is not the case since the STC approved data calls for a particular switch.
Bruce, let's not be too hard on IAs that struggle with making judgement calls. It's a tough world out there right now and if you haven't spent some uneasy nights awaiting NTSB reports then you haven't been around this game long enough. I prefer an IA that is skeptical until informed rather than the ones that sign off some of the hackery that I have witnessed.