Seat rail ?

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Jr.CubBuilder
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Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:33 pm

Seat rail ?

Post by Jr.CubBuilder »

I'm curious what other 170/180/185 pilots out there think about this issue. I'm not asking for advice as I've pretty much already formed my own opinion on the matter, but I would like to hear what others think.

We've probably all heard about the dreaded seat rail issue with Cessna's. When I was flying rentals this didn't seem to intrude too much on my conciousness. I made damm sure the seat was locked into the furthest notch forward (I got short legs) and beyond that I didn't think about it very much.

When I was first introduced to my plane the previous owner happened to mention that he had removed the seat stop to make entering and exiting the plane easier. He could slide the seat all the way back which really does help. This popped up little red flags in my pee-brain and I made it a point to reinstall them. They were a couple of the little thin metal U-brackets with the pingoing through one side, then the seat rail (where there was a hole drilled through the rail) through the other end and then fixed with a spring steel lock pin. For the passenger side I put a little bolt through the only hole available between the fore and aft legs of the passenger seat. This allowed the passenger seat to go forward not quite to the front two pin holes in the track and prevented it from sliding back far enough to make it reasonably easy to get into the right side. This seemed like a great solution till I had to live with it. After I finished my ten hours for Insurance requirements I brought the plane back to my home field where a friend that flies a 185 gave me a Saf-T-Stop which would slide up the rail behind the seat leg and engage the rearmost pin-hole in the rail after the seat was all the way forward. If you are familiar with this stop device you know that it takes about five+ turns to engage it completely. The pin rail is the left of the two tracks for each seat on the 170 which means this has to be done before the door is shut, and the door has to be opened before I can reach it to start unscrewing it.

My first tailwheel instructor for whom I have a lot of respect, and who has literaly over 10000hrs flying air-taxi and comercial in Alaska visably blanched at the seat stop situation before our first flight, but after looking at the arrangement decided it was adequate. He related to me a story from Alaska days when a friend of his rotated in a 206 on floats and the rusty seat rail rivets pulled out of the floor and his seat tipped back.........................the lady behind him was kind enough to push him back forward.

I've had about 40hrs in my plane since then, about 30 with the Saf-T-Stop and I've become increasingly aware that getting out of the plane with the stop in place is time consuming at best (really it's a pain in the ass). I haven't actually run a stop watch with this, but about 10 seconds is the absolute fastest that I can get out of the plane, reach back unlatch the door, start unscrewing the stop, unlatch my seat and slide back, unfasten my belts. That's with no stress involved, if there were AVgas leaking and a campfire going under what's left of the cowl I'd be sh****** my pants trying to get out. I look at my seat rails now and then, they get inspected during the annual, and I always check to make sure my seat is latched before I even start the motor. If the rails rip loose from the floor-board (which I'm reasonable sure they won't) the seat stop isn't going to do any good and thus far I don't carry any passengers in the back seat who could save my bacon in such circumstances. So I'm not going to say that I won't use the Saf-T-Stop anymore, but I have come to the conclusion that it is a solution trying real hard to find a cause. 8O

Thoughts..........anyone?
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jrenwick
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Aerostop

Post by jrenwick »

I use this: http://www.aerostop.net/ on the pilot's right seat rail, and find it convenient and easy to use (but I have to remember it durning pre-takeoff!).

Some people use the Safe-T-Stop and leave it engaged a few inches aft of the seat, so the seat can travel far enough back to let you get out, but not so far that you can't reach the yoke or the door post to pull yourself forward again if the seat disengages accidentally.

I know at least one 170 pilot who has had the pilot seat let go, so I've become convinced this is a real issue.

Best Regards,

John
John Renwick
Minneapolis, MN
Former owner, '55 C-170B, N4401B
'42 J-3 Cub, N62088
'50 Swift GC-1B, N2431B, Oshkosh 2009 Outstanding Swift Award, 2016 Best Continuously Maintained Swift
zero.one.victor
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Post by zero.one.victor »

My friend Density Dog uses the Aerostop seat stops in his 180. They are really nice, but are kinda rich for my blood at $60 each. The Saf-T-Stop's are more reasonable at about $40 for a pair. But like Jr Cub pointed out, more hassle to use.
I have to admit that I don't use any kind of extra catch on the seat rails. The holes in my seat rails are in good shape, ditto the seat pins. And the pins go quite a way into the holes when engaged, so I feel pretty secure.
This whole seat rail/seat pin/seat roller issue is addressed by AD 87-20-03-R2. Read the text of the AD, and make sure your airplane complies. Make sure you get deep engagement of the pins into the holes. And when you pull the seat up into flying position, make sure it's latched in securely. AND make sure your co-pilot's latched in too! The way this kills people is 1) the seat slides way back on take-off, 2) the person in the seat instinctively grabs something (usually the control yoke) and tries to pull themselves forward where they belong, and 3) the nose comes up & the airplane stalls & spins in. Your copilot is probably more likely to be the culprit than you are, so CHECK THEIR SEAT TOO.

Eric
N170BP
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Post by N170BP »

The "Safe-Tee_Stops" are the way to go. I'm not sure
what's going on with your seat rails, but two turns to the
left makes it so I can slide mine back & forth, and two turns
to the right tightens them back up. As another poster stated,
you don't have to set these aux. stops so you can't get in and
out of the airplane, only set them so the seat won't go back
so far that you can't maintain pitch control of the airplane should
the factory seat pin/stop fail.

I routinely set mine such that it leaves two or perhaps three
seat rail pins "to go" and after I'm up and at cruise level, I put
it one notch further aft to give me some leg room. Part of the
pre-let-down procedure is to move the aux. seat stop forward
a notch or so to prepare one's self for a go-around (i.e., should
the primary / original seat stop/pin fail).
Bela P. Havasreti
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'54 C-180
BradW
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Post by BradW »

Interesting topic.
I don't know if its the same in 170's, but here's a related 172 story:
Way back when I was transitioning from 152's to the big 172 the school had, I was up on one of my 1st solo flights in that big plane.... Man, that thing needed a lot of rudder compared to those 152's :lol: Anyway, I was doing some touch 'n goes, two three under my belt before the seat felt 'funny' on rotation. I decided to make the next one a full stop to check it out. When I flared, the seat tipped back. Somehow, I managed to hold on to the glareshield with left hand and keep myself up front and in the action.

Turns out that one of the flight instructors had taken the pilot seat out for some reason just before my flight. There was some sort of little stop on the rail at the back leg, positioned so that the seat couldn't be moved too far forward. When he replaced the seat, he got the leg on the wrong side of the stop. I suppose that when I adjusted my seat getting in, I slid the front two legs off the rail, then back a little for a proper fit. Turned out well, and tought me a good lesson to check the seat.
Happy New Year, everyone!
Brad
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

I have the safety stops but must admit I don't use them because of how difficult it is.

Instead what I've done since I bought my plane is this.

I have short legs so my seat is adjusted up pretty far. As soon as I push in the throttle to full power on my take off roll I take my hand off the throttle and hold on tight to the hand hold in the glairshield. Other than not having my hand on the throttle this is very comfortable and automatic for me. I feel reasonably confident that should the seat let go I could hold myself forward and maintain control.

All was and still is fine with this method. Then one day early this past year as a newly minted CFI I was giving a fresh private pilot his first tail dragger ride. He as in the left seat and controlling the airplane and I was in the right set talking him through the departure and carefully guarding the controls. Being out of my normal position and not really controlling the airplane I wasn't holding on to anything. He pushes in full throttle and the powerful c-145 comes to life and I slide into the back seat. 8O

After his initial shock and in response to my screaming he reduced throttle and managed to keep the aircraft on the 300 foot wide runway but barely.

After investigation I discovered that 2 weeks prior when I had reinstalled that seat I didn't have the seat leg with the seat latch pin installed correctly and the tangs that normally slide under the seat rail holding it in place were riding on top of the seat rail. The momentum of my heavier body twisted the seat pulling the pin out of the stop and back I went.

I still don't use the safety stops but I do have a new respect for this problem and will never take the seat rail inspection or seat installation for granted and double check each time.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!

Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
BradW
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Post by BradW »

Bruce
Sounds like your incident was very similar in cause to mine.
Even though I was succesful in holding myself upright in the 172, in my humble opinion I would not rely only on holding with one hand on takeoff. As you know, it happens fast, and can be very much a suprise. It was difficult to control the airplane with all the different forces pulling and pushing in ways that were not normal.

Granted, the ink was barely dry on my private, but then I was in the landing flare, with no forward acceleration to pull me backwards and basically no p-factor to deal with..... & I had the trianing wheel (as I've noted that you folks call it) in front, so the 'equal and opposite reaction' from the rudder work wasn't really pushing me back in the seat all that much.
Have a Great day!
Brad
-------------------------------------------------
Know how to listen and you will profit even from those who talk badly.
-- Plutarch
zero.one.victor
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Post by zero.one.victor »

I wonder how many mishaps have been caused by improperly installed seats, as described here, as opposed to defective or worn-out seat rails and seat pins & rollers? From what I understand, several years ago Cessna made a high-dollar settlement to the estate of a 185 owner who crashed on takeoff ,due allegedly to the seat sliding back on him. Even though Cessna had issued SB's about the problem, followed by AD's issued by the FAA.

Eric
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johneeb
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Post by johneeb »

Here is a picture of the seat rail stops on an airplane that belongs to a man who wears both a Belt and Suspenders.

I like the ease of use of the Aerostop, its hard to blow off using it because of inconvience.

You notice I only bought one.

Johneb
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Metal Master
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Post by Metal Master »

johneeb wrote:Here is a picture of the seat rail stops on an airplane that belongs to a man who wears both a Belt and Suspenders.

I like the ease of use of the Aerostop, its hard to blow off using it because of inconvience.

You notice I only bought one.

Johneb
Image
I like that deal, where did you get it?

Jim
A&P, IA, New owner C170A N1208D, Have rebuilt some 50 aircraft. So many airplanes, So little time!
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johneeb
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Post by johneeb »

Jim,

I got the belt from off the rack at the local mens store and my wife gave me the suspenders for Christmas. :D

The WEB site for the fancy seat stop is http://WWW.Aerostop.com

Johneb
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3958v
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Post by 3958v »

I use to have the sliding seat stop that you guys are picturing but my AI would not approve it at annual time. He insisted on a U shaped piece of metal with the the pin thru it. I can see his point as it is impossible to forget, but it does make it harder to get in and out. I did have a chance to let it save my butt once though. On a long flight from Denver to Buffalo WY I decided to make a low pass at a frends ranch so he would know to pick me up at the airport. After three hours of flying when I pulled up from my low pass the pin in the seat decided to let go and I slid back to the stop. I then could not get the pin to reset and had to land with the seat about 6" further back than normal. After landing I could not find a problem and have never had a problem since. So no mater how good your rails and rollers and latches are make sure you have that extra stop as one of the lives you save could be your own. Bill K
Polished 48 170 Cat 22 JD 620 & Pug
Metal Master
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Post by Metal Master »

He insisted on a U shaped piece of metal with the the pin thru it. I can see his point as it is impossible to forget.

The u shaped piece of metal is not the original part for the seat stop for a any 170. But it is what I will have on my airplane in front of the seat rail and at the back way back. It is also not a part of AD 87-20-03 R2
As an IA, aircraft owner and Pilot, I will have the cam type latching device on my seat rail to keep from killing myself. And there won't be log book enty because as far as I am concerned it is not part of the aircraft it is just a device.

Happy New Year :P :wink:

Jim
A&P, IA, New owner C170A N1208D, Have rebuilt some 50 aircraft. So many airplanes, So little time!
Jr.CubBuilder
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Post by Jr.CubBuilder »

I have decide to move my safety stop to the inside track, and leave it back far enough that I could reach the controls but still have a fighting chance to get out without releasing it. Since it was given to me and I didn't get any paperwork with it I haven't been sure about how effective it would be without a pin-hole for the screw to positively engage. The only pin-hole available on the left track is right behind the leg when I have the seat all the way forward, hence the difficulty reaching it unless the door was open. That Aerostop looks pretty slick I think I will probably try one of those and move the Safe-T-Stop to the passenger side.
Jr.CubBuilder
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Post by Jr.CubBuilder »

Oh, Happy New years and best wishes to everyone.
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