Training question

tshort · Post by **tshort** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:03 pm

Pending an annual (prebuy) this week I will be the proud owner of a '48 ragwing. I have a couple of excellent instructors lined up to give me tailwheel training prior to flying on my own. I just realized from looking at pictures of the plane (haven't seen it "live" yet) that it doesn't have dual brakes (I don't think). Will this be a huge issue for instruction (haven't asked the instructors yet as I'm currently at work)? Is it even possible to convert / upgrade to dual (or worthwhile?)
Will be joining the club shortly ... many questions to follow!

Thanks in advance

Thomas

3958v · Post by **3958v** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:42 am

Thomas Hope everything goes well for you with the prebuy annual. It is possible to convert yours to dual brakes as some including mine came from the factory that way. But my buddy bought a Pacer with brakes on the left only and used it to learn tail wheel. That said it would be a good idea to limit the X-wind at first and if you have grass available it is much more forgiving of small mistakes. Welcome and good luck. Bill K

Post by **GAHorn** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:13 am

I'd be surprised if your ragwing didn't have dual brakes already, as I believe it was standard equipment back then....all the way up until the '56 model 170B, when it became optional equipment.
As for whether single brakes would be a problem...you'd best ask that of the instructor you intend to use. I personally would not give dual instruction to a new taildragger pilot without dual brakes, but there have got to be lot's better instructors out there than me!

(As an instructor, I feel responsible for keeping the airplane from injury, if the student/in-training-pilot is not already qualified in the equipment. For that reason I would never take a single-side brakes airplane out for instruction, even if the client absolved me of responsibility for brake-related errors. I recommend you do not allow an instructor to commit you to relieving him of the responsibility. In any case, you should check with your insurance carrier to be certain they do not require dual brakes for such instruction.)

tshort · Post by **tshort** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:15 am

The reason I wonder is because the pedals (in the pictures) are "asymmetric" - there is a ridge along the bottom of the pilot's pedals that is not there on the right side.
haven't had a chance to ask the owners yet...

flyguy · Post by **flyguy** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:06 am

I have a set of rudder pedals that have the "extension" rivited to the bottom on the standard "toe brake" pedal. I surmised it was a mod for short legged people.

I also have a set of pedals that have no pivot or "toe brake" pedal to activate the brakes. I don't know for sure that they weren't standard equipment on the early 170s. There would be some additional linkage required to be able to activate the brakes from the right side if they aren't there already.

Brakeless instruction would be a challenge as George stated. It isn't a good scene to contemplate.

Post by **Bruce Fenstermacher** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:04 pm

I agree that if your aircraft doesn't have dual brakes, training would be a challenge at most airports for the instructor with no brakes.

If this is the case and no 170 is available with dual brakes then i might suggest at least for the initial learning that you learn from the brakeless side giving your instructor full control. I know the look and even feel is different but once your over the hump and less likely to ground loop, you can transition to the right seat.

In other words "there is more than one way to skin a cat." If the airplane is otherwise found to be a "good buy". don't pass it up for lack of dual brakes.

rupertjl · Post by **rupertjl** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:26 pm

when I purchased my 1950 A model, there wasn't dual brakes, and to start, my instructor had me sit in the right seat while he had brake control. After he felt comfortable with me, I switched over to the left side. I later installed the second set of brake pedals. But I can comfortably t/o and land from either seat, which I feel is good to be able to do.

Post by **GAHorn** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:33 pm

rupertjl wrote:when I purchased my 1950 A model, there wasn't dual brakes, and to start, my instructor had me sit in the right seat while he had brake control. After he felt comfortable with me, I switched over to the left side. I later installed the second set of brake pedals. But I can comfortably t/o and land from either seat, which I feel is good to be able to do.

Yeah. You never know which seat you'll end up in after the mile-high experience.

cessna170bdriver · Post by **cessna170bdriver** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:30 pm

gahorn wrote: Yeah. You never know which seat you'll end up in after the mile-high experience.

Only you would think of such a thing George, only you.

Actually, flying from the right (wrong) side is not that big a deal. About 20 years ago a friend bought a '54 170B in Louisiana, claimed to have gotten dual instruction, then some how got it to Tennessee in one piece (I think this was before conventional gear sign-offs were required). He asked me ride along while he built his "confidence". I figured that since he had gotten it home by himself that it wouldn't be a big deal. He got in the left seat, and me in the right.

During his takeoff he had his toes on the pedals but they never moved, and the airplane predictably began turning left, eventally reaching a heading about 10 degrees left of runway alignment. Not being an instructor, I sure didn't want to intervene or fight him for the airplane, and just decided to let him be PIC and ride out the takeoff. The paved runway we were on (36 at THA) was 150' wide and to left of it was a wide parallel grass runway, so I was betting on the assumption that the runway lights would break away if he didn't manage to get between them. Luckily, we got airborne just as we crossed the shoulder of the runway and missed all things attached to the ground.

When we got a bit of altitude, I told him he needed more help than I could offer, and could I please make the landing. (What's the emoticon for a nervous smile?) I had never landed anything from the right seat before but I knew I wasn't ready to give HIM a shot at it with ME in the airplane. Although I did have time in a J3 and Stearman, it felt a bit awkward flying with my right hand, but on approach, I just kept the centerline directly in front of me and didn't have any problem with the landing. Since then I've had the opportunity to land several different types from the right seat, and while the sight picture seems a bit strange, I just remember that if I'm looking far enough down the runway (like we all should) the center is directly in front, regardless of which seat I'm in.

Miles

tshort · Post by **tshort** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:42 pm

I talked to the current owner today - it does have dual brakes. Not sure why the pedals look different. That sure makes me feel better about training. The guy I'm flying with has 10K+ hours in twin beeches plus a bunch more in other taildraggers (including the 170).

If I get the opportunity to join the mile high club in this plane I'll gladly land from the right seat!

dacker · Post by **dacker** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:19 pm

I learned to fly via the Navy, first fixed-wing, tandem in T-34s; then moved to helicopters starting with the Jetranger and moving to the H-3 Sea King. In helicopters the right seat is the pilot in command (at least most of them). In the H-3 flying left seat is quiet a different feel, you face slightly outward because of the placement of the cyclic, and you are actually several inches lower in the hover than the right seat (due to the tailrotor thrust you have to hover a few degrees left wing-ahem, rotor down). Imagine my chagrin when I transitioned to King Airs after flying helicopters for a few years. Having to learn how to fly fixed wing again and from the left seat was a challenge. I have flown from the right seat in my 170 and with the exception of the placement of the instruments, it feels somewhat natural controlling attitude with my right hand and power with the left. I'm not sure who started this thing about trying to make airplanes like cars, or why!

David

3958v · Post by **3958v** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:25 pm

For the record Cessna did make rag-wings with brakes on the left side only. The dual brakes were listed in the parts book as optional equipment. The pedals shown have the half pipe overlay when shown with dual brakes and not on the standard equipment page. I surmise the reason for the half pile overlay is to reduce the tendancy to apply the brakes inadvertently while using the rudder. This may have been more of a problem for student pilots. I guess your not suppose to do this but I learned to fly from the right seat by switching seats in the air while flying solo. Definitely took care of the boredom problem that day but I still kept it greassy side down. Bill K

cessna170bdriver · Post by **cessna170bdriver** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:33 pm

dacker wrote:...I have flown from the right seat in my 170 and with the exception of the placement of the instruments, it feels somewhat natural controlling attitude with my right hand and power with the left. I'm not sure who started this thing about trying to make airplanes like cars, or why!
David

Now there's a good long-term project for someone: Convert a 170 from yoke to stick. Sure would make those instrument panel upgrades easier!

Miles

Stinson driver · Post by **Stinson driver** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:17 am

I did my PPL in a DH TigerMoth- It had no brakes at all- To this day I seldom use the brakes in my 170- I owned a Pietenpol for a while that also had no brakes - it wasnt a big problem

cessna170bdriver · Post by **cessna170bdriver** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:19 pm

I also used to fly a Minimaxes quite a bit. They had no brakes, but they had much better tailwheel steering than I've ever been able to coax out of my 170. I've tried many times to get my 170 to the runway without using brakes, but I don't recall ever being successful.

Miles

The International Cessna 170 Association

Training question

Training question

PEDALS ON THE RIGHT????