Negotiating 170B... Advice?

[Philip]

After long months searching left and right on 4 continents, I am negotiating a 170B.

It's a 1955 model, fresh OH with new Millennium, good airframe and controls, but pretty basic. VFR only, no Auto Fuel STC (definitely need one here), no mods, and a paint job that will soon need attention.

Would 44k be on the high side, or fair?

A big point is that this aircraft is in Europe. If I buy one in the US, I have to add 10k to the price for inspection, crating/container, and shipping. From Europe, I can ferry the aircraft down the African coast, or across the Sahara (I know a lot of people would rather get a boil on their bum than landing anywhere in Africa, but I have a peculiar notion of what constitutes "Fun"...).

Thanks...!

[cessna170bdriver]

After long months searching left and right on 4 continents, I am negotiating a 170B.

It's a 1955 model, fresh OH with new Millennium, good airframe and controls, but pretty basic. VFR only, no Auto Fuel STC (definitely need one here), no mods, and a paint job that will soon need attention.

Would 44k be on the high side, or fair?

A big point is that this aircraft is in Europe. If I buy one in the US, I have to add 10k to the price for inspection, crating/container, and shipping. From Europe, I can ferry the aircraft down the African coast, or across the Sahara (I know a lot of people would rather get a boil on their bum than landing anywhere in Africa, but I have a peculiar notion of what constitutes "Fun"...).

Thanks...!

It's impossible to value an airplane without seeing/inspecting it (also, you gave no indication of time on the airframe), but IF the airplane is clean and straight (no corrosion or damage), and depending on the quality of overhaul, 44K USD is probably not too far off. A good engine overhaul is worth 2-3 times the what new paint would cost (at least in the US). There might be some room for negotiation if the panel is reallly basic.

For the same quality airplane I would definitely take the one closer to home, although there is at least one C-170 in Europe (Switzerland) that was flown over from the US.


Good luck, and keep us up to date on your quest.
Miles

[Philip]

TTAF is 2900. The fuselage looks straight (no creases, oilcannning, funny-looking shadows). Pictures of the innards (wings and fuselage) show clean surfaces without visible signs of corrosions. Rivet lines are straight.

Panel has a DG, a K170 with CDI, and a transponder. There is a Garmin antenna on a wing root.

There is also an 18 gal fuselage tank.

Thought about ferrying from the US, but going to Greenland and Iceland over freezing waters goes slightly beyond fun IMHO. And will still cost above ten grands, which negates any financial advantage over container shipping...

[cessna170bdriver]

Philip,

The best advice would be to join the 170 Association, get the Directory, and enlist some "local" help. The Directory shows three members with 170's in South Africa, one in Germany, and several others spread over Europe. The owners in South Africa could probably help you with any requirements for bringing an airplane into the country, and the ones in Europe may possibly be familiar with the airplane you are considering.

Miles

[zero.one.victor]

From what I hear, the value (price) of a good paint job (including stripping) is probably more than half the cost of an engine overhaul, unless you were replacing a lot of sub-spec or failed engine parts.
I've heard 7-8 grand as a ballpark number. At least one member here has had a paint job done recently-- how much?

Eric

[cessna170bdriver]

New paint and new interior are good investments for the seller, as it's hard to beat that shiny, new, first impression it gives the buyer. The articles I've read claim that those are the two things that will actually raise the perceived value of an airplane at least as much as they cost. The functional things, like engine and avionics, don't seem to give as good a return to the seller. However, I would still choose one that needed paint over one that needed an engine.

Miles

[Philip]

Never seen an accident report mentioning ugly looking paint as a contributing factor...

I fully agree with the engine being much more important, with the airframe holding the top of the list.

Moreover, I'm comfortable with a spray gun and don't like the idea of paying for somebody else to do what I could do for much cheaper.

To me the question is: can I get in the US a similar plane for 35-37k? If the answer is a resounding No, I'll try and get this one. If it's a "Could, but don't be in a rush..." then I'll try and negotiate down, while keeping my eyes peeled.

Will appreciate all input... Thanks!

[GAHorn]

While a nice recent paint job is something of value to an airplane (especially if it's YOUR airplane)... it can be a big question-mark on an airplane being shopped for. Fresh paint can hide hail, corrosion, and recent damage repairs. I'd trade recent paint for recent engine any day.
(You can always just strip and polish it.)
All the logs are a big plus. Fresh airworthiness recertifiation (annual inspection) is a MUST for a pre-buy inspection. Damage history is not disqualifying, as long as it's properly repaired and documented.
A cockpit full of instruments and avionics does not impress me unless it just so happens to be EXACTLY (or nearly so) what I'd install myself. (I'd rather save on the purchase price, and install what I want, where I want with the money saved. Same as regards paint/interior.)
In the U.S., expect to pay $25-$35K for a flyable airplane with cosmetic issues. (The higher end will be with a newer engine.) Expect to pay $40-$50K for an excellent example, with great paint/interior/avionics and a younger engine. Pay $55 and up for high-horsepower engine conversions and corrosion-free floatplanes.

[N2865C]

I've heard 7-8 grand as a ballpark number. At least one member here has had a paint job done recently-- how much?

Eric

I had mine painted about a year and a half ago and got prices from $7500 to $9000. If you want anything fancy you can add a little more. From what I have seen you usually get what you pay for. I went with the higher bid because there was just no comparison in quality. The shop I used does outstanding work. The waiting list to get in was over a year, but it was worth it.

[doug8082a]

I've heard 7-8 grand as a ballpark number. At least one member here has had a paint job done recently-- how much?

Eric

I had mine painted about a year and a half ago and got prices from $7500 to $9000. If you want anything fancy you can add a little more. From what I have seen you usually get what you pay for. I went with the higher bid because there was just no comparison in quality. The shop I used does outstanding work. The waiting list to get in was over a year, but it was worth it.

Ditto, ditto, and ditto again...

[c170b53]

Did my own paint for 2K and it shows, but like lots of things I do, I wanted to get a first hand feel for it. From the results seems I was using gloves for the most part.
As for plane costs buy the most airplane you can.

[zero.one.victor]

Needs engine overhaul versus needs paint-- hmmmmm........
One way to look at it is that the re-paint is less money ($7-9K) but more hassle, whereas an engine is more money ($12-15K) but simpler-- just unbolt the old engine and (later) re-hang the new one.
That said, I'd opt for a fresh engine over a fresh paint job every time-- like Phillip pointed out, I never heard of a funky paint job killing anybody. Besides, I'm more into function than form, cosmetics aren't important enough to me to spend much money on it. Can't really see much of the paint job from the pilot's seat anyways.....

Eric

[GAHorn]

Needs engine overhaul versus needs paint-- hmmmmm........
One way to look at it is that the re-paint is less money ($7-9K) but more hassle, whereas an engine is more money ($12-15K) but simpler-- just unbolt the old engine and (later) re-hang the new one.
That said, I'd opt for a fresh engine over a fresh paint job every time-- like Phillip pointed out, I never heard of a funky paint job killing anybody. Besides, I'm more into function than form, cosmetics aren't important enough to me to spend much money on it. Can't really see much of the paint job from the pilot's seat anyways.....

Eric

Hey! We agree again! The only part that needs to be painted is the top cowl surface! (The rest should be natural!)

[Philip]

Thanks all!

Just mailed my TC170A membership fee... and reached an agreement with the seller. In a few months one 170B will make the trip from Northern Germany to Sub-Saharan Africa. If I can get it through at the right season, and get all the right paperwork, I may take it across the Sahara... will keep a leather-bound diary to tie to the strut, for the search party to find in thirty years, as per tradition.

Got myself something to keep me busy during the long winter evenings under the tropics!

Looking forward to ask lots of silly questions on this site...

[GAHorn]

HI, Phillip! Welcome!!!!
Do us ALL a big favor! Keep a detailed diary of your search, find, and purchase events. Then, keep a record of your initial pickup, and flight home with your airplane, INCLUDING lots of pictures!
Send a copy both to headquarters@cessna170.org and to me at gahorn146ys (at) hotmail.com , so as to be certain the association recieves a copy. (Or, mail me a copy at my physical address, available from headquarters.)
That way we can print and publish your story of you and your airplane for the pleasure and information of all our fellow members in our quarterly magazine!
Thanks, in advance!
and....again.... GLAD you are with us!
Regards
George Horn
TIC170A