Ease of flying- 170 vs 180

[Rudy Mantel]

As we know, the 170 is a very easy and pleasant airplane to fly and land.
But IMHO the 180 and 185 are even easier. I have some 4000 hrs in 180's (many years ago) and don't recall ever coming close to a groundloop, although once I had to intentionally groundloop after stupidly landing on a short, mountainous strip in the rain. I didn't know it was downwind ! Went off the end backways and wrote off a beautiful airplane...
As someone said on this forum, it's very important to have the wheels properly aligned and the tailwheel in top condition. And when landing you always have to pay attention.
Maybe because it's lighter, the 170 seems to require a bit more attention than the 180/185 did.
FWIW,
Rudy

[Dave Clark]

I agree with you Rudy but they're really quite different airplanes. There were times taking off in my 180 when I was glad to get off quick due to crosswinds where I would have had real difficulty holding the 170 straight long enough. We're talking maxed out controls and weathercocking across the runway (intentionally on a wide runway). When I get the 180 Lycoming conversion on the nose it should help that situation. Landings I think can be made shorter in the 170, especially light, and since it's slower it can be more forgiving. The one caveot is the early 170 landing gear which is way too springy in my opinion. The heavier 180 and especially the 185 will get bounced around less by the wind on approach.

I like being able to push the 170 on the ground by myself without busting a gut. My 180 was doable but difficult, my 195 was nearly impossible.

I like the Champ-like slow flight float around light feel of the 170.

I like the small pitch trim change of the 170 which contributes to the light feel. A go Around in a 180 mandates you get on the elevator trim right away.

I love my 170.

[N1478D]

And,

180's are pretty airplanes, but it is hard to beat a round tail

[N1277D]

One other advantage of the 170 is the excellent forward visibility compared to the 180. It makes going into mountain airstrips much easier. With the 180 conversion you have an excellent backcountry airplane if your load requirements are not high

[Harold Holiman]

I believe full stall landings were easier in my 170A but wheel landings are easier in my 180. With only the front seat occupied in my 180 if the trim is not all the way back to the stop it is very dificult to make a full stall 3 pointer. On my 170A you had to pin it just right to make a good wheel landing whereas the 180 just stays there on the wheel landing.

Harold H
N92CP
M#893

[Rudy Mantel]

Yes, my 170B is a sweet airplane. I almost always make wheel landings which seemed just a bit easier in the 180's. The 170 makes nice wheel landings, made easier with forward trim. But it's real easy to get a little bounce.
Dave, that's a good point about pushing the airplane - a 180 is much heavier.
I've never flown a 195 but always wanted to. My guess is that it's usually wheel-landed. I'd love to hear about it's handling qualities-
Rudy

[Dave Clark]

Rudy
I've flown 195's with every engine except the P&W 450. That's where I learned that engine weight makes a big difference in the feel of the plane. The light 220 Continental (190) was a three pointer, the 275 and 300 Jake could go either way, My 330 was a wheel lander. All the proceeding based on no rear passengers or bags, but the 330 wouldn't three point without a lot of weight aft. I think it was 60 lbs more in the nose. I could carry all the weight I could fit in it and then some. The 330 is an R-915 so it has lots of cubes. Also it was manifold limited to 26" so I could get full rated HP at say 4,000 ft or so. Beats a turbo.

The 195 is one of the easiest TW planes to land and take off. With the long tail it was pretty easy to keep it straight, the only problem being that if it got out too far there was no way to get it back but that was a point pretty far out of normal. The last real airplane Cessna ever built.

[Rudy Mantel]

Dave, thanks for the insights on the 195. It must be a delight. What did you mean by letting the airplane "get out too far"? Do you mean cg limits ?
CG sure can affec one's landings. The DC-3 was a very easy airplane to wheel land. But I once really made a bad landing when the load in the back was heavier than usual. More forward trim would have been useful.
In the 170 I find that forward trim really helps those wheel landings.
And I agree with you- I love my 170-
Rudy

[zero.one.victor]

Dave, I never heard of the R-915. Is that a Pratt,Jake,or what?

Eric

[Dave Clark]

Rudy

I meant let the tail get out too far.

Eric

R915 is the L6, the 330 hp Jake. That's 915 cubic inches, far more than the 755 on the 275-300 hp Jake. No substitute for diplacement!

[jmarken]

My dad has owned a 195 for almost 40 years. It feels just like my 170A as far as rudder work and all goes on landing and takeoff (I do have the Franklin 220 HP so am used to the torque/p-factor/gyro-scope effect on takeoff). I think they have their reputation as a bad groundlooper because they are heavy. If you do ground loop it, major damage will occur, whereas you can watch a Cub ground loop and nothing happens to them, so it doesn't get reported. Anyway, in a 195, you can also (just barely) see straight ahead. If you keep it straigt and pay attention, like you should with any airplane, you'll be fine with them, and you ooze classic appeal like nothing else!

The bottom line is that if you have a 170, you could buy a 195 and get pretty comfortable in it without much trouble. You will actually find it easier to fly in the long run. Heavier airplanes are more stable all the way around. And that elbow room is priceless. Just have some extra money in your checking acount for fuel, insurance, annuals, etc!

[Dave Clark]

Hey Jeff remember me? I had the Stinson that I bought (unknowingly) with a bad 220 Franklin about three years ago then had to overhaul it then I sold the plane to find a 170. And have ben pretty happy ever since. I think I'm going to get real happy once my Lyc 180 is on the nose.

You're right on about the 195. BTW the R-915 330hp is a bigger engine therefore a bigger cowling. I couldn't see anything ahead of me in a three point attitude! So do you take off and land with the left main on the centerline too? I've almost broken that habit.

[Rudy Mantel]

Two airplanes that I would dearly love to fly before I die are the 195 and Staggerwing Beech. I doubt if I'll ever get the chance.
But I've been blessed- I've owned and/or operated the following neat airplanes: Stinson V-77, Cessna T-50, Cessna 180/185, DC-3, Pitts S1S, Grumman Ag-Cat, and I paid for two hours in a 2-seat P-51 including an hour of touch & go's- a hoot!
Rudy

[Rudy Mantel]

And I left out the 170 !
Rudy