Cessna 172 Tailwheel ground handling qualities.

[lowNslow]

The springs are strong, it just seems that it is very hard to get it to turn at all, requiring differential braking in some cases.

It may just be your tailwheel not unlocking correctly. However I've found a stock 170 requires differential braking to turn other than minor taxi corrections.

Just remember a $200,000+ Cirrus and a $500,000+ Columbia require differential brakes to taxi.

[N1478D]

While I appreciate all the input, and will overlook all the trash talk about swept tails and such, the main gear is not the problem. The aircraft tracks very well on the ground, once there. The problem I am having is directional control on the ground at relatively low taxi speeds. I fear it may be a function of the conversion. The tail wheel seems to have limited controlability on the ground. The springs are strong, it just seems that it is very hard to get it to turn at all, requiring differential braking in some cases. Thanks for all the input, if anyone has any other ideas or knowledge about this conversion, please feel free to add your two cents.

cv580 the only swept tail conversion I have ever seen was the one I was poking fun at that was at the Arlington airport. The color scheme and stripes had a whole lot to do with how it looked. I apologize for my post. I surely did not mean to trash your airplane. That particular plane did not look very good for lots of different reasons.

Do you have the Scott 3200 tailwhell assembly? If so, it is very intuitive to dissassemble and inspect the internal parts. When you remove it from the airplane, you should be able to turn it in your hands and feel the indents where it locks. If you can't turn it by hand, something is wrong.

[15A]

When I first started taxiing my 172TD, I noticed it wasn't quite as responsive as my C120. When I went to pick up the tail, I realized why!
It's HEAVY!!! It does require a little braking to get that first turn, but after it's rolling, it takes full rudder. I try NOT to use my brakes whenever possible. I'm the guy that has to pay to replace them! It's gone thru 3 annuals so far without replacing the pads! Unless you are having a problem with the tail wheel locking or shimmeying when landing, you may just have to learn to adapt! I am absolutely satisfied with my conversion! Great heat (sometimes too hot!), excellent short field performance, FLAPS!(new to me, my 120 had none), very economical, and roomy!!! (I'm 6'2" 185#) My wife, Linda, and I get a big kick out of it when we go to Nantucket or the Vineyard and the tower refers to us as a 180! It truly is a poor man's 180.
Enjoy it and many happy landings!

[GAHorn]

While I appreciate all the input, and will overlook all the trash talk about swept tails and such, the main gear is not the problem. The aircraft tracks very well on the ground, once there. The problem I am having is directional control on the ground at relatively low taxi speeds. I fear it may be a function of the conversion. The tail wheel seems to have limited controlability on the ground. The springs are strong, it just seems that it is very hard to get it to turn at all, requiring differential braking in some cases. Thanks for all the input, if anyone has any other ideas or knowledge about this conversion, please feel free to add your two cents.

CV580 ( a Convair-driver! YES!)... it sounds to me as if the tailwheel is not swivelling easily?
The 170-installation of the Scott 3200 did NOT utilize all 5 compression springs inside the clutch/friction-plate assy. The 170 (and similarly-sized airplanes) only used 3 such springs.
Your tailwheel should obey it's "detent" (provided by the angularly-shaped ...\_/...U-spring/pawl assy), but should "pop" out of the detent with a little braking and swivel easily. I gather that your tailwheel is greased and otherwise in good condition, and it's spindle-angle is correct.
See:
http://cessna170.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... =tailwheel

(And, you're right-on-target to ignore those silly boys badmouthing the looks of someone else's airplane. They are just giving a lighthearted ribbing. Besides....at least two of them have GREEN airplanes! )

[cv580]

Well, the tailwheel is put together correctly and does swivel by hand, and yes.. as with the cub, I took out to of the five internal springs in the hopes that is would help the solution, but it just seems to be what it is. I was hoping someone would say "hey I know that conversion, shorten a cable, beef up a spring, and BAMM, its fixed. My fear is that this is what it is, and your right, the tail is heavy! Where I can lift the cub with one hand and slide somthing under the fuse when I want to work on the tail, this takes two people to do it. So it may just be that its heavy, and the conversion has it's temperments. The tailwheel is a little stiff, (still able to move by hand) and I will take it apart and re-build it soon, but not as stiff as this thing acts. Its just a bear to turn, FULL rudder to get it to start a turn, or keep it straight. Again, it tracks SUPER straight on the runway, or when you get it going in the direction you want it. As far as the mini 180, I think it will work well, I like the 42.5 degrees of flaps, and the o-360 has her leaping off the ground. My wife is happy not to look at the back of my head anymore (well most of the time, still have the cub). Thanks everyone, if someone has anything to add, its welcome.

[15A]

CV,
I've rebuilt my Scott 3200 because I, too, thought it should handle a little better. WRONG!!! I put all new parts in it and it didn't make one bit of differance. But now I know the tail wheel is good! I wrote it off as just one of those things! I'm really glad to hear you still have your Cub. Like myself, I almost sold the C-120 to put the money into the 172. I had it posted for 2 hours and then pulled the ad! It was KILLING me!!! I couldn't bare to see leave. The 172 is great when you've got passengers and a place to go, but that little taildragger (120) sure is alot of fun when you have no place special to go and just want to play around locally; spins, wing overs, slow flight into the wind where your ground speed is negative!!! I'm in process of putting it up on floats!

I would suggest if the tail wheel seems to do what it has to, go with it for a while. But if there is the slightest hint of something not quite right, bring it to the people that know how to address it! Good luck!

[170C]

Geeze Joe, you just burst my bubble I thought all those folks that showed up when I landed my C-170C aka C172TD were coming to see ME Actually they are probably coming to see your nice White & Green 170

[swanstedt]

One more item to check that wasn't mentioned before (or I missed it) is to check the rear tire pressure...35 psi. This probably isn't the cure-all to your problems but an under inflated rear tire does make it much more difficult to turn...and is cheap and easy to check and fix.

Scott

[KMac]

I have a new Scott 3200 tail wheel and the old style 170 steering on my 170A (I am not sure, but the linkage might have a lot of differences from yours). It has very sluggish response to the tailwheel steering especially compared to the lighter citabria I learned tailwheel in. At taxi speeds and with a little more air over the rudder I don't have to use the breaks much except for real sharp turns. Hope that helps.

There are very few tailwheel airplanes that are ugly - in my opinion. Converting a straight tail 172 to tailwheel makes a bland airplane look good! No offense to the tricycle crowd

[hilltop170]

The shop that did my recent restoration in Alaska has a Multiple Field Approval to lengthen the tailwheel steering arm at the rudder bracket. It spreads the steering springs out to about a foot apart and down about 4" on each side to provide a straighter pull on the tailwheel arm. It rotates the tailwheel more with the same rudder input. It really improves the steering. I still need to use some brakes to steer but nowhere near as much as before.
Richard

[cv580]

And which shop might that be? That sounds like something that might help, thanks.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

The shop that did my recent restoration in Alaska has a Multiple Field Approval to lengthen the tailwheel steering arm at the rudder bracket. It spreads out the steering springs to about a foot and rotates the tailwheel more with the same rudder input. It really improves the steering.
Richard

I can attest to this. My friends 170A at one time had a wing leveler installed. Part of that installation that never got removed was an extended arm at the rudder. My friend conventiently forgets which holes the tail wheel control cables attach to so he puts them in the outside holes of the extended control horn.

Besides the cross wind gear which is a treat on their own his is one of the best handling 170s I've taxied.

[hilltop170]

Cv-
The shop with the rudder bar extension Multiple Field Approval is Wick Air Inc., Palmer Alaska, 907-745-4322. Talk to Mel, Stan, or Aaron, all good guys. They are an FAA Repair Station with excellent support from the local FAA. They stay busy rebuilding Cessnas and Cubs as their main business.

I'm sure they would sell you the parts to install but since it is not an STC you would have to get your own 337 approved unless your plane is in Alaska and they do the work. With a copy of their Multiple Field Approval as a basis, it should go thru the approval process somewhere else without too much problem.
Good luck,
Richard

[blueldr]

I don't believe I'd waste my time trying to get the above mentioned multiple approval through anything other than a paper shreder. FSDO people in the"Lower 48" really seem to hate any modification from Alaska, and seemingly will go to any length to prevent it from being approved.
As a matter of fact, it's almost impossible to get any one time mod approved.
For example, I would like to install a set of C-175 wings on mt C-170B. I have a copy of a letter ,on Cessna stationery, from a cessna engineer stating that the wings are identical , with the exception of the fuel tank size. I also have about six copies of other prior one time approvals. Even the same inspectors who signed off the prior approvals say they are no longer authorized to to do it now.
The FAA is a cancer on the progress of general aviation.

[170C]

If you continue to encounter difficulty with your tailwheel situation, you might consider finding a friend with another Scott 3200, that appears to work well, and borrow his tailwheel long enough for a test to see how "his" works on your plane.