Cessna 170 Aerobatic?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Yes, that's the way I read it too, Bruce. I just wanted to point out that you may not demonstrate a spin to another occupant unless you, or he, is either a CFI or is wearing a parachute.

That's good George. For a moment I thought I missed a word or was reading one word for another. Then I'd have to go out in my Cub and do a few reverse loops and spiraling climb to reverse the effects of the loops and spins I've done over the years.

BTW for you guys that don't live in the north east. It is very difficult for a pilot to legally fly aerobatics here under 91.303. Believe it or not there just is no place that you can be more that 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway.

[Bill Rusk]

One way to help understand the FAR's is to remember that the FAA does not care if you kill yourself, but they do not want you to harm or kill anyone else. You will see this thread throughout the FAR's and the parachute for aerobatics is just one example. Another is low altitude flight................"so that if an engine fails you will not cause harm to persons or property on the surface" (or something like that). If you want to fly low and kill yourself they don't care until you hurt someone else. If you keep this thought in mind while studying the FAR's they may make at least some sense.

Bill

[KMac]

Last four words of a hot dog pilot:

"Hey Y'all watch this!"

[c170b53]

Gee I'm surprised, up here spinning is part of basic training. Could the video be showing a wing over?

[Joe Moilanen]

Last four words of a hot dog pilot:

"Hey Y'all watch this!"

9222A looped? I know nothing...

[GAHorn]

Gee I'm surprised, up here spinning is part of basic training. Could the video be showing a wing over?

I'm guessing you're unable to view the video link at the beginning of this thread?
If it's a "wing-over" then the pilot is even worse than we first suspected.
Spins are good training. They used to be required training in order to attain a flight instructor's certificate, but the req'mnt was dropped a number of years ago when the FAA decided it was not wise to teach "stall-recovery" but to teach only "approach to stalls". Go figure.
Under current regulations, spins may only be performed in: 1-aircraft approved for spins, 2-under the instruction of a CFI, or solo, unless a) all occupants are wearing approved parachutes b)the spin does not exceed 30-degrees pitch and 60-degrees bank (unlikely to be accomplished within those limits in most aircraft, and still effect a recovery.) (ie-the irony of that requirement is that would very likely be a flat-spin and would not be recoverable in most aircraft, and therefore is the very time you'd probably find a parachute handy. It also relates to the utility category in Cessna 170 aircraft.... in order to legally perform spins in a 170, it must be in the utility category. This helps prevent the spin from becoming "flat" due to an aft C.G.)

[N2865C]

Spins are good training. They used to be required training in order to attain a flight instructor's certificate, but the req'mnt was dropped a number of years ago when the FAA decided it was not wise to teach "stall-recovery" but to teach only "approach to stalls".

Are you saying that instructors don't get spin training and students aren't required to learn stall recovery now days. If so, that's truly frightening .

[GAHorn]

That was the case for a short while in the 80's.
The rule was changed again and now, under the title of "Eligibility Requirements" for a CFI reads:

FAR 61.183 (i)(1) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins; and ...

(2) Demonstrate instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures. However, upon presentation of the endorsement specified in paragraph (i)(1) of this section an examiner may accept that endorsement as satisfactory evidence of instructional proficiency .... (In other words, the CFI applicant must have been taught stalls/spins and demonstrated them satisfactorily to another CFI who endorsed the applicant's logbook thusly... but the actual practical test administered by an examiner may not actually include testing on such matters (unless it's a re-test after a failure on those items.)

If you are curious about spins, then I'd only suggest you not be cavalier about who you choose to demonstrate them, nor be too careless about which airplane you choose to spin, and/or the manner in which that airplane is loaded for the flight. There have been factory test pilots killed spinning otherwise plain-vanilla airplanes that were approved for spins, but were being flight-tested for some seemingly unrelated matter.

WD Thompson, Cessna Test Pilot wrote of a certificated Cessna he and another test pilot was ready to bail out of when it refused to recover from a spin, but the door refused to operate. It was jammed. After spinning from 10,000 feet and making numerous attempts to recover, he finally lunged at the door as a last ditch effort at 1,000 feet and the door tore off the airplane. That change in airflow from the lost door brought the airplane out of the spin, at about 600 feet!
It was a mystery as to why that airplane behaved so, and two weeks were spent trying to determine why that spin became uncontrollable, but they never figured it out. He remarked that he was always wary of spinning airplanes afterwards....and HE was a professional test pilot.

(As evidence of his professionalism, his written report of the matter included his careful observation of the exact location where the door fluttered to earth, so the factory could go pick it up.)

You still want to go spin your 170?

[dacker]

I remember an article by one of the regulars for Flying magazine, I don't remember his name but he was an old WW II Corsair pilot and had instructed for thousands upon thousands of hours. If you have read this magazine in the past twenty or thirty years you have probably read one of his articles. He wrote this particular article about one of his experiences in his 150 Aerobat, he was teaching spins and basically got into an almost unrecoverable spin only to pull out of it a few hundred feet from the ground. After landing and inspecting the airplane all that was found was that the elevator cables had a small amount of slack and the elevator was not deflecting enough to effect a recovery. Afterwards, as part of his pre-aerobatic preflight he would have someone hold the yoke while he tried to move the elevator to make sure there wasn't too much slack.

I personally have never spun my 170, I just don't have the need nor desire to do so. I do practice stalls quiet often, and I do one stall exercise where I hold the stall while maintaining heading with rudder (it is impossible to spin unless you allow the airplane to yaw). I just don't want to be the test pilot in my 57 year old airplane for a flight maneuver that I have no purpose for.
David

[cfiatzph]

Gee I'm surprised, up here spinning is part of basic training. Could the video be showing a wing over?

I'm guessing you're unable to view the video link at the beginning of this thread?
If it's a "wing-over" then the pilot is even worse than we first suspected.
Spins are good training. They used to be required training in order to attain a flight instructor's certificate, but the req'mnt was dropped a number of years ago when the FAA decided it was not wise to teach "stall-recovery" but to teach only "approach to stalls". Go figure.
Under current regulations, spins may only be performed in: 1-aircraft approved for spins, 2-under the instruction of a CFI, or solo, unless a) all occupants are wearing approved parachutes b)the spin does not exceed 30-degrees pitch and 60-degrees bank (unlikely to be accomplished within those limits in most aircraft, and still effect a recovery.) (ie-the irony of that requirement is that would very likely be a flat-spin and would not be recoverable in most aircraft, and therefore is the very time you'd probably find a parachute handy. It also relates to the utility category in Cessna 170 aircraft.... in order to legally perform spins in a 170, it must be in the utility category. This helps prevent the spin from becoming "flat" due to an aft C.G.)

Wrong to my knowledge spin training is still required for ONLY CFI training. For Other certs or ratings a knowledge of upcoming Spins is required. You have to be careful with anything past a incipent Spin. I have had them go flat in C-150's. I would roll or loop a airplane before I spun most legal or not.

"(1) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins;"

[GAHorn]

...Wrong to my knowledge spin training is still required for ONLY CFI training..."

Perhaps you didn't see my message posted Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:43 pm where I quoted FAR 61.183 (i)(1) and (2).

[cfiatzph]

Sorry gahorn that may have been the bottle talking. At least I felt special for quoting a FAR passage!!! Sorry.

[flat country pilot]

OK, I assume that dump questions are easier to handle than dumb mistakes. Therefore, how does a plane enter a spin? I would like to avoid a spin, but I like steep turns and I like to practice stalls.(not at the same time)

Without opening a book to look, I believe to spin a plane we need one wing stalled and one wing still flying. What attitude, air speed, control inputs, etc...? Details?

Bill

[dacker]

Bill, the mechanics of a spin are probably too much to get into here, but basically spins are entered when too much yaw is introduced in a stall. There is nothing wrong with practicing stalls in banked turns, you just need to control the yaw with positive rudder, and reduce the angle of attack for recovery. This is one of those maneuvers that a good CFI will introduce and make his student practice. If you are uncomfortable or not familiar with these type of maneuvers I would suggest going up with a CFI and practicing. My experience has shown me that most of these young guys (and old ) are very comfortable with the airplanes that they instruct in and regardless of their experience level I always seem to learn something. The reference I made in an earlier post about holding the stall and controlling the airplane with rudder is designed to learn controlling the airplane when it basically is no longer flying...like in a stall close to the ground (just don't get that mixed up with stall recovery). This also basically teaches you the rudder element of spin recovery. Spins are not evil, they just need to be approached with eyes and mind wide open.
David

[bradbrady]

Bill,
David said it well. But what is a spin? Acording to all the books I've read it is an agervated stall. What's an agervated stall? Apparently it's a stall that someone has SCREWED UP TO THE MAX! When I was in flight school twards the end we had to show the chief instructor that we could enter and exit spins to finish the course. I would enter the spin then exit within a quarter turn. The chief would say NO,NO,NO I want to see two turns befor you get out! So an hour and a half later we finally got me to make more than one turn. To me this just is uncomfortable, It's just not flying the airplane correctly! But low and behold instruction helps in the long haul! Several years later I was flying with a student that I had all confidance in. (I was geting him ready for his check ride) I had him do a stall to the left, full power, then recover. Well he did a nice job entering the stall, then he recovered a little more than he should have! He kicked the right rudder so hard that we rolled over on our back and entered a spin. (I never saw this coming) My feet were on the floor! (big mistake) Then he did the classic right thing and threw his arms up and said (YOUR AIRPLANE) Well we went from about four thousand to fifteen hundred by the time I got my feet back up on the rudders and pulled us out! I learned that no matter how much you trust a student you never take your feet off the rudders!!! And no mater how how you instruct you can't figure out all the out comes that can happen!!
brad