Static System and Transponder 24 Month Cert Question

[CBogle]

Dear fellow members:

I am coming up on my 24 month static system and transponder check and need your opinion on the following:

1. FAR Part 91.411 on the Altimeter and Static System test requirements says, a) No person may operate an airplane, helicoper, in controlled airspace under IFR unless...

My first question is, since in never intend to operate my aircraft under IFR because it doesn't have the required equipment to do so, does this mean that I'm not required to have the 24 month Altimeter and Static System test?

2. FAR Part 91.413, and appendix F appears to say that I need to have my transponder and altitude reporting system certified every 24 months if I intend to operate in any class of airspace where this equipment is required, whether operating IFR or not. Is this correct?

In summary, my interpretation of these two FAR's is that I don't need a 24 month Altimeter and Static System test but I do need the transponder certificatioin. Is this correct.

Thanks,

Curt N4288V

[N2865C]

In summary, my interpretation of these two FAR's is that I don't need a 24 month Altimeter and Static System test but I do need the transponder certificatioin. Is this correct.

That's how I have always understood it... While there is no requirement to have a transponder if you are not operating in airspace that requires it, I think you may need the 24 month inspection if you have one installed in the aircraft even if you stay clear of Class B & C.

[mit]

Correct no static system check required for VFR and they don't even have to meet appendix E for VFR. That should start a pissing contest!

It is in part 91 for the encoder check

[jrenwick]

FAR 91.413 says, in part: "(a) No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in 91.215(a), 121.345(c), or Sec. 135.143(c) of this chapter unless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this chapter...." (italics mine).

That sounds like you can have a transponder with an expired inspection in the aircraft, so long as you don't turn it on and you don't fly in airspace that requires it to be used. But a smart owner would keep the inspection up to date and use the transponder in areas with radar coverage, because it helps other pilots who have TCAS and other kinds of traffic detectors, and it lets you take advantage of what ATC can do -- even if you're not talking to ATC.

If you can find an avionics shop that is willing to do a VFR-only transponder check, it could be a lot cheaper. They won't notice leaks in your static line, and won't have to fix them, if there are any.

Best Regards,

John

[Tom Downey]

In light of this thread, how do you folks get around 91.215 (a) when you elect to operate with out a transponder?

§91.215 ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.

(a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of TSO-C112 (Mode S).

[Tom Downey]

Correct no static system check required for VFR and they don't even have to meet appendix E for VFR. That should start a pissing contest!

It is in part 91 for the encoder check

ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment is not a VFR / IFR thing, it is an ATC and airspace issue. What rules you are flying under is not the transponders purpose.

Its purpose is for comunication with ATC. If you are flying in any airspace that comunication with ATC is NOT required you are able under FAR 91.213 para 4 make the determination to fly with inop equipment.

I quote
(4) A determination is made by a pilot, who is certificated and appropriately rated under part 61 of this chapter, or by a person, who is certificated and appropriately rated to perform maintenance on the aircraft, that the inoperative instrument or equipment does not constitute a hazard to the aircraft.

An aircraft with inoperative instruments or equipment as provided in paragraph (d) of this section is considered to be in a properly altered condition acceptable to the Administrator.

(e) Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, an aircraft with inoperable instruments or equipment may be operated under a special flight permit issued in accordance with §§21.197 and 21.199 of this chapter. [Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34304, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-280, 68 FR 54560, Sept. 17, 2003; Amdt. 91-282, 69 FR 44880, July 27, 2004]

If at any time during such a flight you were asked by any ATC to squak, and could not, you would be in violation of 91.213 (a) If ATC can prove you took off after the equipment failed.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

In light of this thread, how do you folks get around 91.215 (a) when you elect to operate with out a transponder?

§91.215 ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.

(a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of TSO-C112 (Mode S).

Tom, I don't think the issue is operating without a transponder it's operating a transponder that is INSTALLED that has not been recently tested to certify it meets one of the applicable TSO requirements.

So I suppose you could remove the transponder and remain outside all the airspace of 91.215 (B)

[Robert Eilers]

Tom,

There are many older aircraft, like the Cub and Champ, originally certified without an electrical system, that operate regularly without transponders -even under the Class B 30 mile veil with the correct exemption. Of course you have to avoid, Class C and B airspace and are limited to operating below 10,000 MSL. I flew to Oshkosh and back in my Champ in the company of several J-3s and a vintage helicopter none of which had a transponder.

[Tom Downey]

Tom,

There are many older aircraft, like the Cub and Champ, originally certified without an electrical system, that operate regularly without transponders -even under the Class B 30 mile veil with the correct exemption. Of course you have to avoid, Class C and B airspace and are limited to operating below 10,000 MSL. I flew to Oshkosh and back in my Champ in the company of several J-3s and a vintage helicopter none of which had a transponder.

I know that very well, they operate under the FAR 91.215 (a)


(a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of TSO-C112 (Mode S).

and

91.215
(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of a airport listed in Appendix D, Section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted-

(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area and

(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL whichever is lower; and

(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling an within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and

(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or glider--

and it goes on and on.

[Tom Downey]

In light of this thread, how do you folks get around 91.215 (a) when you elect to operate with out a transponder?

§91.215 ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.

(a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of TSO-C112 (Mode S).

Tom, I don't think the issue is operating without a transponder it's operating a transponder that is INSTALLED that has not been recently tested to certify it meets one of the applicable TSO requirements.

So I suppose you could remove the transponder and remain outside all the airspace of 91.215 (B)

How would you prove that with out an inspection?

§91.405 Maintenance required.

Each owner or operator of an aircraft-

(a) Shall have that aircraft inspected as prescribed in subpart E of this part and shall between required inspections, except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, have discrepancies repaired as prescribed in part 43 of this chapter;

If it is installed, the inspection is required. If the aircraft has an electrical system it is required to be installed.

that is by the the rules.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Tom

I'm with you to be honest. Until I just read the FARs again I thought the transponder was required (not mode C) everywhere but apparently that is not the case according to 91.215 b1 through b5.

The part that you quoted 91.215 (a) says that transponders that are installed must meet the TSOs. It doesn't say you have to have a transponder installed.

I'm saying that to meet 91.215 (a) if you have a transponder installed it must be inspected. You must have a transponder to go into the areas described in 91.215 (b)(1) through (b) (5) and you must according to 91.215 (c) have your transponder on in the areas described in (b) unless otherwise directed.

Again this is new thinking to me because in the area I live in unless you don't have an engine driven generator and therefor don't have to have a transponder (but are restricted as to where you can go), you pretty much have to have a transponder to go anywhere.

Know I wouldn't be surprised that there is another FAR that requires a transponder everywhere but 91.215 is not it. At least as I just read it.

[N2865C]

If the aircraft has an electrical system it is required to be installed.

My understanding has always been that a transponder is not required for VFR unless you are flying in airspace that requires it (B & C for us) or inside a Mode C veil surrounding Class B. If you have an electrical system you are required to have a transponder to fly within a Mode C veil. If you don't have an electrical system you can fly in the Mode C veil without a transponder. We fly cubs into the San Francisco mode C area all the time. Sometimes it takes a little explaining to a tower controller that has radar available (Reid-Hillview for example right next to San Jose Internationa under the S.F. Mode C, but just outside the Class C).

I just had my transponder out for three weeks for repairs and confirmed with 2 different IA's that I was OK to fly outside Class B & C and Mode C veil without it. I know that doesn't prove a thing, but I will leave it up to you bookworm types to try to interpret the FAR's . For now I have to agree with Bruce until someone shows me a FAR that requires a transponder be installed.

[jrenwick]

...We fly cubs into the San Francisco mode C area all the time. Sometimes it takes a little explaining to a tower controller that has radar available (Reid-Hillview for example right next to San Jose Internationa under the S.F. Mode C, but just outside the Class C)....

For many years I kept my J3 at FCM, a tower-controlled field under the Minneapolis Class B airspace. My standard calls were
"Flying Cloud Ground, Cub 62088 at [location] with [ATIS], taxi for [direction] departure, negative transponder."
"Flying Cloud Tower, Cub 62088, ready for takeoff on [runway], negative transponder."
"Flying Cloud Tower, Cub 62088, 10 [bearing], landing with [ATIS], negative transponder."

They never said a word to me about Mode C.

Other airports in my home area and everywhere from Florida to Anchorage, the words "Cub ... negative transponder" always seemed to be understood.

[Tom Downey]

Tom

I'm with you to be honest. Until I just read the FARs again I thought the transponder was required (not mode C) everywhere but apparently that is not the case according to 91.215 b1 through b5.

The part that you quoted 91.215 (a) says that transponders that are installed must meet the TSOs. It doesn't say you have to have a transponder installed.

I'm saying that to meet 91.215 (a) if you have a transponder installed it must be inspected. You must have a transponder to go into the areas described in 91.215 (b)(1) through (b) (5) and you must according to 91.215 (c) have your transponder on in the areas described in (b) unless otherwise directed.

Again this is new thinking to me because in the area I live in unless you don't have an engine driven generator and therefor don't have to have a transponder (but are restricted as to where you can go), you pretty much have to have a transponder to go anywhere.

Know I wouldn't be surprised that there is another FAR that requires a transponder everywhere but 91.215 is not it. At least as I just read it.

After re-reading the FAR I think I agree with your asessment, but to remind every one that the aircraft in question already has a transponder installed, So it is up to the owner to get the inspection completed.

[voorheesh]

Getting back to the original question, I get my pitot static check done at the same time as xpdr and it costs $175 for the whole exercise at our local avionics shop. This seems to me a good idea for a 57 year old airplane. Does your altimeter show field elevation within 75' when set to the local altimeter setting? Do your indicated airspeeds seem within reason from stall to cruise? If so, your pitot static system is probably in good shape. If not you might want to spend a few bucks and have a sparky chase down some leaks.