Splitting PIC Time (FAR 61 discussion)

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Ben you are required to establish that you are cleared through the class D (or C) airspace. Flight following and being vectored does not alleviate you of the responsibility though it would be uncommon to be vectored into or through airspace not owned by the controller without his getting prior clearance for you.

[n3833v]

I would think they communicated with them. I lost communication with NY Center coming home from MA and they had informed Allentown, PA of my flight track and when I contacted ABE, they already knew of my future arrival.

John

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

This is true John BUT you were NOT cleared through Allentown Airspace (which is a Class C for those unfamiliar) till you hear the words N3833v cleared into Allentown Class C airspace. Under normal circumstances you would have talked a Allentown controller prior to actually entering the Class C and they SHOULD clear you in with the statement previously mentioned.

I know that sometimes the controllers get busy or it is over looked specially when receiving flight following both VFR and IFR. It is normal to think if your are talking to a controller he and he knows what you intend to do or he has even vectored you, that you have a clearance but that is not correct. Never be afraid to ask and confirm that you have clearance through airspace if you haven't heard the magic words. It is the pilots responsibility.

I can't tell you how many times I've actually discovered I've lost communications with a controller for one reason or another when I've attempted to check in and get a clearance through airspace. And when it's been inside the dreaded Washington ADIZ which has happened a few times that will really get you scrambling to talk to ANYBODY.

[BenWlson]

This is true John BUT you were NOT cleared through Allentown Airspace (which is a Class C for those unfamiliar) till you hear the words N3833v cleared into Allentown Class C airspace. Under normal circumstances you would have talked a Allentown controller prior to actually entering the Class C and they SHOULD clear you in with the statement previously mentioned.

I believe the only airspaces that require a specific clearance are class A & B. Class C & D only require you to establish radio communication which is done when the controller reads back your N number.

If they say, "NXXX standby." You have established communication and you may enter.

If they say, "Aircraft calling such-and-such tower standby," radio communication has not been established and you may not enter the class C/D.

They could say, "NXXX remain clear of class D airspace." In that case you have established radio communication, but they have instructed you to stay outside, which you must do. I would guess in this situation, though, if there was some reason you could not abide by their instructions, you could still enter because you have established communications and then explain to them why you cannot abide by their instructions. Maybe you must enter to remain VFR.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

A fine but critical point Ben

To enter Class D airspace you must establish communications. That is considered done when, as you point out, the controller acknowledges you specifically by call sign. Communications has then been established and you can continue and enter Class D unless being told otherwise.

However for Class C and B airspace communications AND a clearance must be received. So for these airspaces you must hear a clearance for you specifically by call sign.

[BenWlson]

A fine but critical point Ben

To enter Class D airspace you must establish communications. That is considered done when, as you point out, the controller acknowledges you specifically by call sign. Communications has then been established and you can continue and enter Class D unless being told otherwise.

However for Class C and B airspace communications AND a clearance must be received. So for these airspaces you must hear a clearance for you specifically by call sign.

§ 91.130 Operations in Class C airspace.
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

§ 91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.
(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.

The clearance requirement is not listed anywhere in the Class C airspace regs.

[GAHorn]

HOLD THE PRESSES! HOLD THE PRESSES!
You guys are not going to believe this but I have made several errors in my previous statements. (I relied upon a defective memory of OLD FAR Part 61, which has been extensively re-written since I did any primary training. I *will not delete the posts ** *but* because they are so full of error, ** I don't want to be responsible for mis-educating and requiring the reader to UN-learn the wrong stuff... **.)

Current FAR 61.63 addresses additional ratings to a pilot certificate.
(a) General. To be eligible for an additional aircraft rating to a pilot certificate, for other than an airline transport pilot certificate, an applicant must meet the appropriate requirements of this section for the additional aircraft rating sought.
(b) Additional category rating. An applicant who holds a pilot certificate and applies to add a category rating to that pilot certificate:
(1) Must have received the required training and possess the aeronautical experience prescribed by this part that applies to the pilot certificate for the aircraft category and, if applicable, class rating sought;
(2) Must have an endorsement in his or her logbook or training record from an authorized instructor, and that endorsement must attest that the applicant has been found competent in the aeronautical knowledge areas appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft category and, if applicable, class rating sought;
(3) Must have an endorsement in his or her logbook or training record from an authorized instructor, and that endorsement must attest that the applicant has been found proficient on the areas of operation that are appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft category and, if applicable, class rating sought;
(4) Must pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft category and, if applicable, class rating sought; and
(5) Need not take an additional knowledge test, provided the applicant holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, or airship rating at that pilot certificate level.

Same is basically true of additional class rating (for example a seaplane.) The applicant must receive a logbook endorsement and submit to the practical test.

(c) Additional class rating. Any person who applies for an additional class rating to be added on a pilot certificate:
(1) Must have an endorsement in his or her logbook or training record from an authorized instructor and that endorsement must attest that the applicant has been found competent in the aeronautical knowledge areas appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought;
(2) Must have an endorsement in his or her logbook or training record from an authorized instructor, and that endorsement must attest that the applicant has been found proficient in the areas of operation appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought;
(3) Must pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought;
(4) Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part that apply to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought unless the person holds a lighter-than-air category rating with a balloon class rating and is seeking an airship class rating and
(5) Need not take an additional knowledge test, provided the applicant holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, or airship rating at that pilot certificate level.

Therefore a certificated SEL pilot needs MEL operational instruction and endorsement in his logbook from a CFI before taking the practical (flight) test. He does not have to take a knowlege test if the grade of certificate does not change.

So, a private pilot with sel wishing to add mel or ses would not have prescribed minimum training hours to prepare for the rating. Neither do they require any solo time. They would not need an additional knowledge test. They would need training from an authorized instructor and an endorsement that they are competent to pass the test.
I am sorry to have been so bone-headed and out-of-date with old info.
My personal Thanks to our "lurking" fed.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

George I read those same FARs as you quoted specifically looking to see if a SEL pilot had to have a log book endorsement to fly solo in an MEL airplane. I didn't find any and so agreed with that part of your statements.

It was clear that before a pilot sought the rating or in other words before he took his check ride a log entry would have to be made.

I just don't understand our confusion. These FARs are SO clear.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

The clearance requirement is not listed anywhere in the Class C airspace regs.

Yes Ben I stand corrected there is no clearance requirement for Class C. I've made this same mistake before and been called on it. You would think I'd remember.

[GAHorn]

How's this for a scenario?:

A SEL rated private pilot desires to add MEL to his certificate in the most inexpensive manner possible. So, he gets his CFI buddy to sit in the cockpit, in the hangar, and take him thru "dry runs" as a training excersize in preparation for the MEL practical test. His CFI buddy then endorses the applicant's logbook as meeting the required training for the practical test, which the applicant then takes with the FAA examiner.

I seems unlikely, but legally should meet the requirements.

He'll have to accomplish 3 takeoffs/landings before carrying passengers, which might be accomplished during the practical test anyway.

[jrenwick]

Hi George,

Assuming you're serious about this (I know, ASS-U-ME), I think your scenario wouldn't fly because the examiner would have to conclude that the authorized instructor who wrote the endorsement could not possibly "attest that the applicant has been found proficient in the areas of operation..." without having actually flown with the applicant. (61.63(c)(2))

[jrenwick]

When George made the assertion that a pilot licensed for SEL was eligible to solo a MEL or SES aircraft, I scoured the current Part 61, trying to find what it says about that. I was expecting to find a straighforward regulation stating that you're only allowed to fly solo or as PIC in the category and class you're licensed for. That doesn't seem to exist.

What I could find is the definition of "Pilot in Command" in FAR 1.1, which is a person who, among other things, "holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate...."

I was also confused, because in the old days when I got my license, the first PIC time I was allowed to log was for passing my PP checkride. Up until that point, I could only log solo or dual instruction. So there used to be a real distinction between solo and PIC.

But now FAR 61.51(e)(4) permits a properly endorsed student pilot to log solo training flights as PIC. To me, this seems to erase any distinction between solo and PIC: student solo time is PIC time, and the endorsement on the student pilot certificate constitutes the "appropriate category [and] class rating" for limited solo training flights.

That's the best I could come up with. I wish it were clearer!

[GAHorn]

John, with regard to the old Part 61...yep...I agree. That old reg sure was persistent in my mind. (Shows the relative value of recurrent training, no?)
The new 61 has no flight time requirements at all for a certificated pilot who wishes to add MEL to his certificate. For that reason, I began to use my imagination to come up with the bizarre scenario I depicted.
The rule requires an endorsement from a CFI that the applicant meets the training requirements for the practical test. Since no flight time is specified, none is required (in the scenario.)

[jrenwick]

...The rule requires an endorsement from a CFI that the applicant meets the training requirements for the practical test. Since no flight time is specified, none is required (in the scenario.)

Well, not quite. Reread 61.63(c)(2). The endorsement must state that the applicant "has been found proficient" in the required areas of operation for the rating sought. Although there is no specific amount of time given for that, I don't see how an instructor could make that statement without having flown with the applicant enough to be sure they'll pass the checkride. Surely the FAA would kick back an application for MEL add-on with no MEL dual flight time logged within the preceding 60 days (see also 61.39(a)(6)).

Best Regards,

John

[GAHorn]

...The rule requires an endorsement from a CFI that the applicant meets the training requirements for the practical test. Since no flight time is specified, none is required (in the scenario.)

Well, not quite. Reread 61.63(c)(2). The endorsement must state that the applicant "has been found proficient" in the required areas of operation for the rating sought. Although there is no specific amount of time given for that, I don't see how an instructor could make that statement without having flown with the applicant enough to be sure they'll pass the checkride. Surely the FAA would kick back an application for MEL add-on with no MEL dual flight time logged within the preceding 60 days (see also 61.39(a)(6)).

Best Regards,

John

Your "I don't see how an instructor could make that statement" I believe is an interpretation, not a reading. (I've been recently cautioned not to "interpret" but to "read as plain language" the FARs.) There is no flight time requirement therefore none is required by the FAR for an instructor to determine whether or not the applicant is "proficient". (I might simply ask you some questions, have you demonstrate the flight and engine and fuel control movements necessary for engine-out operations while sitting still in the hangar...and determine you are sufficiently proficient in the operations of the aircraft to qualify for my CFI endorsement.)

But there is one other area that might be taken into consideration if the applicant does not meet the grandfather clauses of 61.31 (e) and (f) which address complex aircraft and specify that actual flight time must be recorded before the aircraft may be operated by the pilot. This rule will still apply unless the grandfather clauses apply (for logged time prior to Aug 97.)
Of course, para (k) "Exceptions" allows for operation by a non rated applicant "when taking a practical test when given by an examiner"

Therefore, I still do not believe that actual flight time is required for a SEL pilot to receive an endorsement to take the practical test. (How 'bout it "Lurk?")