TCM IO-360 CONVERSION

[wenetz]

I have been looking all over the Internet for the prformance data on the 170 with the TCM IO-360 Conversion. I would really appreciate it if any of you who have done this conversion to your 170, could inform me about it. Thank you in advance.

Best regards,
Pedro de Wenetz
1950 C-170A

[flyguy]

Probably the best resource in our Association is John E. Barrett aka johneb's. This thread will probably give you lots of info for starters. http://www.cessna170.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2687

Here is a link to his photos but none of them show the 170 as it is now. It is a beauty! http://groups.msn.com/Johnebs170/shoebox.msnw?Page=1

[ak2711c]

If you look up XP mods web page they have some performance numbers on there. Other wise just do a search on this site and you will find quite a bit of discusion on it in the past. If you have a specific question I may be able to answer it. I have one in my plane.
Shawn

[wenetz]

Thanks for the links Flyguy! It took me a while to go through it but I learned about the conversion process.

[wenetz]

Shawn, Thanks for your offer. The XP Mods site, though, has been out of service for months and I am trying to contact them by other means. The 148MPH that you mention on the thread that flyguy supplyed, did you get that on a fixed pitch? My English is not as good as I would want it to be, and it seemed to me that you were going to keep a fixed pitch prop, but at the end of the reading I was confused with what you had.

[170C]

You might contact C170 member Jim Yates in Edmond, OK. He has that set up on his 170 and gets some really good performance. He's listed in the directory.

[ak2711c]

I have the constant speed prop on it. I don't recall exactly what all speeds I quoted back then. I have done more testing with my plane since then though and here is what I have found.

With my plane on 31" Bushwheels with the fat Bushwheel tail wheel:
22" MP and 2300 RPM = 118 MPH @ about 8.5 GPH
24" MP and 2400 RPM = 128 MPH @ about 10 GPH
26" MP and 2600 RPM = 148 MPH @ about 12 GPH (this is max continuous power cause it is a 2800 RPM motor)

With 6.00x6 tires and stock tail wheel:
22" MP and 2300 RPM = 128 MPH
24" MP and 2400 RPM = 141 MPH (same fuel flows as above)
26" MP and 2600 RPM = 153 MPH

I'm not sure what percentage of power those power settings work out to be. I have never tried a wide open speed run with it but I imagine it would be at or above redline. The biggest difference I noticed going from the big tires to the small tires is the rate of climb. It took a big jump.

[wenetz]

Thanks a lot Shawn, Those figures are really nice. How is the initial R/C when operating from airstrips at high altitudes? I really wanted to go for the Franklin 220 conversion, but everybody keeps telling me that it would not be a good choice and that I should go for the TCM IO-360, plus the Franklin people have dissapeared from the face of the Earth. The TCM is much more expensive from what I've herd. Now comes the hard part, findinding a nice affordable engine and an STC. Are you in touch with anyone at XP MODS? Because these guys are also missing. Thanks again.

Pedro.

[ak2711c]

Pedro, I have not done much flying from strips at high altitudes. Most of my flying is out of strips at an altitude of 1000' or less. If I am light and have the big tires on it will climb out at about 1300-1400 FPM. If I am light with the small tires it will climb out at about 1700-1800 FPM. I do however routinly climb up to 9000' to cross a large body of water. At gross weight with the throttle wide open (about 21" MP) and 2600RPM at 9000' it will still climb at about 800-900 FPM.
I wish I could help you with XP mods but I have not talked to them in over a year. I have not heard if or when they are going to be able to start producing their STC conversion again. I do think the TCM is a better way to go than the Franklin but only because of parts availability and customer support for the engine. The Frankin is a good motor and as I recall I think it is the only production motor that still does not have a single AD out on it. Good luck on your search.
Shawn

[GAHorn]

...The Frankin is a good motor and as I recall I think it is the only production motor that still does not have a single AD out on it. ... Shawn

Although the Franklin folks keep talking about their engine as if it is in production.... IN fact, it is NOT in production according the latest info. It is an orphan. Again.

Wenetz.... have you read this post/message thread? --
http://www.cessna170.org/forums/viewtop ... f=4&t=5196

[wenetz]

Shanw, thanks again for the info!!

George,

I went through the topic you linked me to and I want to thank you for it, because I nad not red it before. But the truth is that other than finding out about the existing controversy, was not able to get much out of it. I really do not know where I stand, facing this conversion . The thing is that, as of right now, I don't know wether it is possible to carry it out or not. Actually, from what I've red it seems pretty much clear that it is not possible to do the conversion right now, because it is impossible to find an STC for it. Could you please through some light in this subject? The more I read the more lost I am.

This doesn't mean that I don't appreciate all the info, links and personal opinions that you guys are giving to me, because I DO APPRECIATE IT VERY MUCH, it just means that I have very little or no clue on the paper work requiered and the technical aspects. So again, thnak you all for your help and patience

Take care,
Pedro

[GAHorn]

Pedro, the TCM IO-360 engine is probably the BEST engine conversion for this airplane and XP Mods was probably the easiest (albeit expensive) way to accomplish the task. With Tom Anderson's personal dilemna's, it's become more complicated as of late. I'm hoping he can resuscitate his business and soon. (When the statutes of limitations run out on my originality-stance, it's the engine I plan on putting in N146YS, ... partly because it LOOKS original.)

There are other ways to install this engine. There are also other folks who have done this conversion and NOT used the XP Mods STC. John Benham (TIC170A member C-1) did it, but it took him a lot of effort (and with the help of Cleo Bickford's expertise) to the the authorities to approve it. I don't think John is willing to sell his STC, however. He seems to be afeared of liabilities.
There may be others who also hold STC's for this engine, but I don't have any contact info on them handy.

The engine was utilized on the Cessna 172 XP Hawk aircraft and in the military verson, the T-41, and that is likely where XP Mods got it's name/idea. The problem with that approach, as I understand it, is that the 172-XP had a "stepped firewall" and so a custom engine mount must be built for the 170 flat firewall, .. and that is the only major problem as far as I know. I'd think that Kosola and Associates could build one, but approvals might be a case of extensive paper-work.

I wonder if our resident-STC-guru (Ron Massicot) might be interested in constructing such a scenario where the Assn could develop the STC, perhaps by purchasing John's? (This might be opening a completely different can of worms.)

My last correspondence with you suggested you contact Harry Dellicker. Did you do that? And what did he have to offer?

T-41 Mescalero Aircraft:

[blueldr]

Since installing this modification on my '52 C-170B, I have had many inquirys about cost. I try to explain that it is very expensive and if they're just looking for a more powerful airplane their best bet is to sell the C-170 and buy a C-180.
In my opinion, a conservative estimate of the cost would be about $35,000 if you can do almost all of the work yourself.
For an example, put your own figures on the cost of the following:
1. Cont. IO-360 engine
2. Propeller
3.Spinner
4.STC and engine mount
5.Baffling
6.Fuel and vent plumbing
7.Fuel return check valve
8.Firewall shut off valve
9.Header tank
10.Controls(Throt.,prop, mixt.)
11.Instruments
12.Exhaust system
13. Fuel boost pump

And the list goes on. Plus any outside labor.

The gist of it is that you have to want a high performance C-170!

[wenetz]

Thank you both George and BL,

I haven´t tryed to contact Harry Dellicker. As you know I chose Eric from Sandhill Aviation to do the job on my airplane, however we haven't made much progress for the past two weeks on the engine "thing" so I am going to try to give Harry Delicker a call and see if he can help us out. I really appreciate the help that you are giving me, because as of right now I'm stuck on this STC problem and thanks to your posts, I can follow different paths to solve this.

BL,

Thanks for the cost report. Believe it or not I keep getting your same advise of going into a 180 and I'd really love to if it wasn't for the crush I have on my little 170. Plus she is only one of two 170's that were ever registered here in Spain. She has been in my country since 1950 and there are very few Spanish registrations (less than 10) that date from back then and still fly today, so to me she is a piece of our aviation history and I would really love to keep her flying for at least another 50 years. But Spain, after Switzerland is the second country with more mountains in Europe, and the summer here gets really hot, so we could use the extra power in order to have a less troubled flying experience in the future. And as George says: "it looks original", so as soon as I solve the STC issue, I'm buying her a boat ticket to the States for a thorough maintenance job.

Thank you all for your help ,
Pedro

[GAHorn]

Sandhill is an excellent choice for doin the conversion for you... I was only suggesting you contact Harry for info on the conversion and how to obtain parts and approval, as he is well-rehearsed in this sort of problem.