Northern Climate Auto Gas

[W.J.Langholz]

For those of you that have a STC for Auto Gas in the Northern Climate.

I have owned my aircraft since this spring so I have not gone through a Minnesota winter yet. I have a STC for Auto gas, Is there something that I should be doing if I burn Auto gas instead fo Av gas? I ordered a engine cover and a Reiff oil sump heater and thing else you can advise a new owner?

W.

[ginbug92b]

I have run car gas for 40 years without ANY problems,summer or winter. I've flown it in temperatures ranging from 100F to -25F, no problems. HOWEVER, now that all the car gas in New York has alcohol mixed in it I have stopped using it. You would think the FAA,whose job it is to PROMOTE aviation would step in to ensure safe car gas would be available or bring back 80-87 avgas and recind all the car gas stc's. Yeah, I know I'm dreaming!

[GAHorn]

Make absolutely certain no alchohol (ethanol) is in the autofuel you use.

Use the fuel promptly, as autogas does not store well, and even if left in the tanks for a couple of weeks may very well damage components of your fuel system due to the current formulations of autogas. (Carburetors are rapidly getting expensive to the point of congressional bail-outs.)

How much will you save by using the stuff? Not as much as used to be, and the repairs may very well override that. I personally don't want the reliability issues of using it in my own airplane.

100 hours per year, times $2/gal, times 8 gph = $1600/year....about $150/month. Can't afford to fly because of $150? I feel that much is saved in maintenance and reliability, and the convenience of buying fuel at airports instead of facing the hazards of transporting it in my car and exposing my fuel system to the troubles caused by autogas.

George (the most opinionated person around when it comes to autogas, but if it's your airplane, you get to choose.)

[W.J.Langholz]

George

I like opinions from most people...........your's is welcome also

We are still fortunate enough to have 80/87 availible (with no corn,that's for food) in it. At current rate Our plane will get closer to 450-500 hours on it/year.

The o-300 was designed with 80/87 in mind, and there are plenty of issues using 100ll as well.

All that said .....I was waiting to see if you would reply, you kind of keep us all on center when we get off to the left or right too far even if you can be seen as uppity (I like that word) once in awhile

W.

[cessna170bdriver]

George

.....I was waiting to see if you would reply, you kind of keep us all on center when we get off to the left or right too far even if you can be seen as uppity (I like that word) once in awhile

W.

I think George would have us lean as far to the left as he could get us...

[pdb]

Autogas or avgas, a thorough preheat is a necessity to insure longer life for your engine. How long is long enough depends on many factors, temperature, wind, do you have covers outside or use a hangar, etc. A superficial engine preheat job will not suffice.

Once you have the engine started, you need to keep the oil warm as well. Do you also have a winter kit with a cover plate for the nose bowl and partial cover for the grill? See page 147 of the Cessna parts catalogue.

Don't have a winter kit? There is always STuckC'ed duct tape. Check with George first regarding approved brands. However, better study the parts catalog carefully as well so you don't tape over too much area , especially if you are on skis. Its easy to quickly overheat an engine trying to blast off when you are stuck in powder. The FAA and your engine overhauler may not approve.

[W.J.Langholz]

I know very little about cowl plugs, seems like everything, there are guys that wouldn't do with out them and then there is those that hate them.....who is I guy to believe?

W.

[flat country pilot]

I ordered a engine cover and a Reiff oil sump heater

Since your asking, in Minnesota you should have the full Reiff engine heater, not just the sump heater. I haven't priced a Reiff for a couple years, but if your going to put the engine heater on, put the entire heater on with the cylinder bands.

Do a search on this site for a few discussions on preheating.

Bill

[GAHorn]

You might notice that when props are shipped, the blades are protected in a type of foam-paper that is like a flat envelop that slips over the blades. This stuff makes excellent insulation. The prop blades are nothing more than huge heat-sinks and they will steal the heat away from your engine pre-heater at a rate you wouldn't believe.

The point is, in addition to your engine heater, and your blankets and cowl covers/plugs... also slip some insulation over your prop blades during preheat, and on turn-arounds between flights in arctic conditions.

[W.J.Langholz]

Autogas or avgas, a thorough preheat is a necessity to insure longer life for your engine. How long is long enough depends on many factors, temperature, wind, do you have covers outside or use a hangar, etc. A superficial engine preheat job will not suffice.

Once you have the engine started, you need to keep the oil warm as well. Do you also have a winter kit with a cover plate for the nose bowl and partial cover for the grill? See page 147 of the Cessna parts catalogue.

Don't have a winter kit? There is always STuckC'ed duct tape. Check with George first regarding approved brands. However, better study the parts catalog carefully as well so you don't tape over too much area , especially if you are on skis. Its easy to quickly overheat an engine trying to blast off when you are stuck in powder. The FAA and your engine overhauler may not approve.

Pete

I forgot to tell you but I'm one of those other guys with a 57 c-172 my part number is on page 227 under Winterization Equip. "plug assembly nose cowl vent part # 0552104 where would a guy find one of these?
Willie

[HA]

somewhere on this forum from last winter (do a search) is an excellent post on the winterization kit with pictures of the actual parts and some well-crafted copies. There are 3 covers, one for the oil pan cooler hole, and two that cover part of the inner part of the cowl openings. I made some based on that post which worked great last winter, which I'd post pix of if I could only make that function work - not smart enough yet for that I guess.

My oil cooler cover is a square piece of aluminum sheet, with 2 screw holes in the center near the edges - a couple of sheet metal screws go into some tinnermans on a strip of aluminum that serves as a clamp to sandwich it all onto the cowl. Cover the edges of the outer cover with some duct tape to save your paint if that's a worry.

My cowl opening covers are about 6" wide, they fit inside the cowl behind the bars and attach with a modified adel clamp over the bar. I cut a flap into the bottom of the side that would otherwise block the heater air inlet, and bent it back so that air can deflect down into the heater air inlet. Not only do I keep the engine warm but me too that way. At least the cylinder air covers should come off when it's warmer than 30 degrees.

Your oil pan heater will work fine to maintain the engine's heat (with your cover on) while you're parked somewhere, but it will take quite a while to actually preheat the engine from scratch if it's really cold - think all night. Which is fine, just understand that you need to have it plugged in that far ahead - no spur of the moment flights relying on the pan heater to get you going.

I don't like car gas either, anything currently for sale will eventually harden o-rings and seals in your fuel system and cause leaks due to the alcohol. Some guys consider this routine maintenance, I think why spend the money you supposedly saved on the (sort of) cheaper gas. But yes, your engine will run fine on it. If you can still get 80/87 (wow) then great, you'll have fewer cylinder deposits and less plug fouling and that's good.

[Brad Brady]

I wouldn't burn mogas with out at least 1/4 100 LL in it, to stabilaze the crap that we put in our cars....shelf life is something like two months ....thats when you order it with out ethanol, and thats another charge,out here.....

[GAHorn]

There are many who advocate the mixing of autogas and avgas for use in airplanes. Such methods strike me as assuring that one gets the worst of BOTH.

Avgas is good base stock...but it has been contaminated with lead, which our low-octane engines do not like.

Autogas is lousy base stock with all sorts of ingredients (known and unknown) that hurt our airplanes and it does not store well ... but it has not been contaminated with lead.

Mixing the two guarantees one will get the curses of both.

I've always used avgas and added Alcor-TCP to get rid of the lead, but it's become virtually impossible to locate anymore. There's a substitute, sold by Aircraft Spruce, called Decalin, which purports to contain the tri-cresyl-phosphate active ingedient in Alcor's product. Alcor used toluene as a "carrier" which makes it a hazardous transportation substance. Decalin uses alkyethanol which I have no idea what that is. It sounds like an alcohol, but a google search indicates it's a plasticizer. I do not know what that means or does to our fuel systems. I intend to contact the mfr'r and find out.

[blueldr]

Mogas (Auto Gas) will not start as easy as Avgas in cold weather. I know because I'm a long time user of Mogas starting back in Alaska in about 1949.
In about 1995 they discontinued the use of MTBE as an oxygenator in all the mogas in California and replaced it with ethanol. I have been using the ethanol laced mogas, (5%), ever since. I normally average 150 to 200 hours per year and have never had any kind of a fuel problem. I also do not have to clean my spark plugs, ever.
It has been my experience that the dire consequences of using mogas, particularly that containing ethanol, has always been touted by persons with only anecdotal knowledge and no personal experience.
I use "Regular Unleaded", 87 octane mogas.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

It is important to note that up to 5% ethanol is acceptable under the MOGAS STCs. In PA at least anywhere within 75 miles of me it is impossible to buy MOGAS with less that 10% ethanol. The stuff we have with 10% ethanol won't last in any equipment I have so I'd never put it in my plane though I'm less worried about putting it in and immediately running it back out. How ever since I've had some weed wackers and a leaf blower with dissolved fuel lines I believe because of the ethanol, I can't bring myself to put it in my airplane anymore.