New Engine Options

[jasondepew]

I bought my plane about 9 months ago. The engine is near TBO and hasn't been overhauled in 20 or 30 years, so I think it's about time for a new one. I've read about a few conversion options out there. I especially like the idea of the 220 hp Franklin/PZL, but it sounds like that source has dried up. I've also read about putting an O-360 or IO-360 in there. Overhauling and keeping the C145 is also a possibility.

What engine options are still on the market and what ones are best? What are some honest performance figures from those of you who have done conversions? How bad is the weight penalty for these engines and do any of them have a gross weight increase available? Do you have a ballpark cost estimate or know of a shop that deals in a particular engine? Thanks in advance!

(I apologize if this info is already in the members only portion, but I'm a new member and haven't been given permissions to that part of the site yet. Hopefully soon... )

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Jason,

The members only section of the forums contains very little information about our 170s. It's intent was a place that members could discuss membership issues with just members and not the general public. Such topics might be doubling the salary of all the associations volunteer positions.

Recently the MX library was restricted to members as well. This library primarily contains documentation or details of procedures with examples being Cessna or Continental Service Bulletins.

All discussion of engines and rebuilding and mods such as larger engines are spread though out the open areas of the forum. I have some first hand knowledge of rebuilding which is about 7 years old when I did my C-170. And having read every post here have a pretty good idea what's available so I will start with what I can think of.

First rebuilding your C-145/0-300. It is getting difficult to find any of the bigger rebuild shops who will rebuild our engines. The problem is a few of the parts like the crank are getting scarce and expensive. They have a difficult time estimating cost because of this and just tend not to get involved. So this leaves the smaller shops and or an individual A&P and maybe with their help you to do the rebuild. Difficult to say what a rebuild might cost because we don't know the condition of your case, crank, accessory case, gears and cam. About 7 years ago I spent about $4000 on parts and reconditioning of the bottom end parts. I inspected and overhauled my cylinders myself. If I'd had bought 6 new cylinders at the time it would have added another $4200 to the cost. I didn't pay a mechanic for any services for the actual disassembly and reassembly of the engine and installation of the rebuilt engine on the airframe. I did not, at the time, overhaul any accessories such as the generator, carb and mags. If I did the same today I think including new cylinders it might cost $10,000.

If you paid someone to do it all for you and you had no issues with the major components of your engine I'd think $18 to $20K might be in order.

As for other engines there is only one shop, Harry Dellicker at Del Air in CA, who currently sells and supports any and that is for a Lycoming 180. You can buy Del Airs STC and have any shop or A&P install it. XP mods owns an STC for the IO360 but that STC is not being supported at this time. I'm not sure how the Franklin 220s were installed. Probably by a one time approval and not an STC. Approvals of this sort are just not being given today by the FAA and as you've indicated these engines and support are drying up. Very few engine modifications have been done recently primarily because of the cost which has been reported to be between $30 and $40K probably closer to $40K than $30K. Basically if you want a bigger engine you are much better off buying a 170 already converted.

[Roesbery]

http://www.stootsaviation.com

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

As for the STCs I should have said Harry has the only active STC that I know of. I knew I'd be corrected which is fine by me. I'd rather be wrong than right in this case.

Good to see someone else doing these conversions and STCs and by the looks of it actively adding new engines like the 0-390 to their STCs. Wonder if they will add that to the 170 STC.

[jasondepew]

Thanks for the info so far. I have a friend who flies a C-172 with a Lycoming 180 and CS prop and loves it. That seems like a decent option. Does Dellicker have a website? I found some info for him here: http://forums.cessnaowner.org/read/5/12 ... 50/quote=1.

[alaskan99669]

Speaking of Stoots... I recently got an email from Dave Stoots with some price quotes. I hope you are sitting down, but here are some 2009 #'s for adding a little get up and go to our 170's:

Corey, the IO-390 210hp Lycoming engine as of now is only being tested on the Cessna 175 then for C-172 models. The problem for the C170 series is that the cowl is smaller than the C-175 cowl. The larger angle valve cylinders used on the IO-360 and IO-390
engines make the engine wider and taller, the mods for the cowl are almost a new cowl for the C-170s, very expensive. If the demand is out there it may happen. A new cowl design for the C-170 would be around $5,000 to $7,000.

Cost for the IO-360M1B 180hp engine, 80" Hartzell Prop on the C-170B and Labor $52,000.00

STC kit and parts cost for the Cessna 170B $12,000.00 (no engine, no prop)

Hope this helps and any more question please e-mail or call 907-590-5559, Dave Stoots

[jasondepew]

Thanks all for the engine advice. I ended up finding Larkin Floyd and Tri State Airmotive. He does core swaps on O-300-D's, but sold me one outright. I would have loved to upgrade, but couldn't justify or afford an engine that cost 1.5 or 2 times as much as my plane did for a 35 hp increase right now. If only the PZL Franklin option hadn't dried up.... (I'm planning on writing an article to submit to the newsletter about the whole process when it's all done. Hopefully that'll be soon.)

Unfortunately, the O-300-D has a prop hub with 6 bolts instead of the 8 on the C-145. As far as I can tell, the Type Certificate Data Sheets (TCDS) for the C-170 (A-799) or the O-300-D (E-253) don't specify anything about which propeller to pair with the motor. The TCDS for the older C-172 models that use this engine (3A12) lists four propeller options: McCauley 1C172/EM 7652, 53, or 55 or Sensenich 74DC-0-56. I've been planning to go with one of those. My questions to the group are: what are the differences between these props? What does the nomenclature tell me? For the McCauley, what is the difference between the 52, 53 and 55? I understand the difference between a climb and a cruise prop, but I don't know yet how to identify one from the other by nomenclature here. I think I'd prefer a climb prop...my understanding is that it'd only cost me a couple knots of cruise speed in exchange for takeoff/climb performance worth having. Does that sound right?

I have a 10% off coupon at Univair right now, so I'm leaning toward getting a new prop. Does anyone out there know of any used ones for sale? If anyone's interested, I'll have a nice 8-bolt prop available soon.

Here's to getting back into the air soon...hopefully!

[GAHorn]

Thanks for the info so far. I have a friend who flies a C-172 with a Lycoming 180 and CS prop and loves it. That seems like a decent option. Does Dellicker have a website? I found some info for him here: http://forums.cessnaowner.org/read/5/12 ... 50/quote=1.

Harry Dellicker does not have a website.
Harry is a "talker" and will happily spend more time talking to you on the phone than even I do typing here on the forums. (I don't have any idea how he gets any work done, but it may help explain why it takes a while to get your airplane back.)
There are two kinds of Harry Dellicker customers: Those who love him and those who are glad to get their plane back.

[ron74887]

Jason, if you are putting an O-300-D engine in your plane you need to contact Jan at headquarters and buy the STC for that engine in the 170 airplane. It has all the approved props and accessories (vacuum pumps, props , etc).. It is inexpensive and will cover your a&% and the legal paper work. This alone pays for all your dues for quite a while. You have to go with one of the props you mention--the 52 is a climb, 53 std and 55 cruise( all listed bythe STC). Your 8 bolt prop in good shape will almost pay for the new one. Ron

[GAHorn]

Thanks all for the engine advice. I ended up finding Larkin Floyd and Tri State Airmotive. He does core swaps on O-300-D's, but sold me one outright. I would have loved to upgrade, but couldn't justify or afford an engine that cost 1.5 or 2 times as much as my plane did for a 35 hp increase right now. If only the PZL Franklin option hadn't dried up.... (I'm planning on writing an article to submit to the newsletter about the whole process when it's all done. Hopefully that'll be soon.)

Unfortunately, the O-300-D has a prop hub with 6 bolts instead of the 8 on the C-145. As far as I can tell, the Type Certificate Data Sheets (TCDS) for the C-170 (A-799) or the O-300-D (E-253) don't specify anything about which propeller to pair with the motor. The TCDS for the older C-172 models that use this engine (3A12) lists four propeller options: McCauley 1C172/EM 7652, 53, or 55 or Sensenich 74DC-0-56. I've been planning to go with one of those. My questions to the group are: what are the differences between these props? What does the nomenclature tell me? For the McCauley, what is the difference between the 52, 53 and 55? I understand the difference between a climb and a cruise prop, but I don't know yet how to identify one from the other by nomenclature here. I think I'd prefer a climb prop...my understanding is that it'd only cost me a couple knots of cruise speed in exchange for takeoff/climb performance worth having. Does that sound right?

I have a 10% off coupon at Univair right now, so I'm leaning toward getting a new prop. Does anyone out there know of any used ones for sale? If anyone's interested, I'll have a nice 8-bolt prop available soon.

Here's to getting back into the air soon...hopefully!

Jason, virtually all the questions asked in this msg have extensive discussions here at this website already, if you'll do a search. The 170 Assoc'n already OWNS the STC to install that O-300-D and McCauley props you mention (courtesy of former president and current inmate, Ron Massicot. It is double-cheap to purchase for a member of the Assoc'n.)
The propeller question answer is: The EM series props are lighter weight than the 8-bolt props due to smaller hubs, and the blades of the EM is the same profile as the former (8-bolt) MDM prop. The difference in the numbers you mention are the "PITCH" of the prop.... theoretically a 52 pitch prop travels forward 52" for every complete rotation. It would be considered a climb prop for the O-300-D installation. This information should be found STAMPED on the hub of the prop, such as 1C172/EM7652. (76 equals diameter, and 52 is pitch.)

[Joe Moilanen]

Thanks all for the engine advice. I ended up finding Larkin Floyd and Tri State Airmotive. He does core swaps on O-300-D's, but sold me one outright. I would have loved to upgrade, but couldn't justify or afford an engine that cost 1.5 or 2 times as much as my plane did for a 35 hp increase right now. If only the PZL Franklin option hadn't dried up.... (I'm planning on writing an article to submit to the newsletter about the whole process when it's all done. Hopefully that'll be soon.)

Unfortunately, the O-300-D has a prop hub with 6 bolts instead of the 8 on the C-145. As far as I can tell, the Type Certificate Data Sheets (TCDS) for the C-170 (A-799) or the O-300-D (E-253) don't specify anything about which propeller to pair with the motor. The TCDS for the older C-172 models that use this engine (3A12) lists four propeller options: McCauley 1C172/EM 7652, 53, or 55 or Sensenich 74DC-0-56. I've been planning to go with one of those. My questions to the group are: what are the differences between these props? What does the nomenclature tell me? For the McCauley, what is the difference between the 52, 53 and 55? I understand the difference between a climb and a cruise prop, but I don't know yet how to identify one from the other by nomenclature here. I think I'd prefer a climb prop...my understanding is that it'd only cost me a couple knots of cruise speed in exchange for takeoff/climb performance worth having. Does that sound right?

I have a 10% off coupon at Univair right now, so I'm leaning toward getting a new prop. Does anyone out there know of any used ones for sale? If anyone's interested, I'll have a nice 8-bolt prop available soon.

Here's to getting back into the air soon...hopefully!

Hello,

I have a 0-300D engine in my '53 170B. I have a 8043 climb prop and love it. As soon as I figure out how to do it I'll post a video of me taking off and landing on my 650' strip with trees at the end.

Joe 4518C

[mrpibb]

I have a O-300C that was installed with a field approval (remember those day's), which also has the 6 bolt crank, didnt go with the 300D wanted to retain the pull start, plus those angle starter drives are getting expensive. Anyhow I'm running a 172em7653 that I repitched to 50" it cruised real nice with the 53" but I needed climb performance out of my home base with a 1900 ft runway. The only thing i regret is that I would love to sometime throw a Aeromatic prop on it, but you need a 8 bolt flange for that. I lost about 15mph in cruise, but I figure that all that speed wount help me if I dont clear the trees

[GAHorn]

That's interesting to me, Vic! I also have the O-300-C and prefer it over the -D for the same reasons. I have the EM7655 which is fine for cruising speed but requires plenty of runway when hot/heavy. My installation originally claimed "approved" by virtue of an FAA inspector's error in issueing an original Standard Airworthiness. The seller believed that made it "approved data".
I didn't agree and purchased the Association's STC from Generalissimo Massicot.

[W.J.Langholz]

George

Would a o-300 CCA be the same as a o-300A ?

W.

[jasondepew]

Jason, if you are putting an O-300-D engine in your plane you need to contact Jan at headquarters and buy the STC for that engine in the 170 airplane. It has all the approved props and accessories (vacuum pumps, props , etc).. It is inexpensive and will cover your a&% and the legal paper work. This alone pays for all your dues for quite a while. You have to go with one of the props you mention--the 52 is a climb, 53 std and 55 cruise( all listed bythe STC). Your 8 bolt prop in good shape will almost pay for the new one. Ron

Thanks everyone for the info and how-to on the prop nomenclature. I did email Jan and get the STC. It doesn't specifically list any props, but it does state that the purpose of the STC is being able to install props "requiring an SAE No. 3 propeller flange" and mentions E-253. I suppose I could have read the STC a little closer and avoided the question...sorry. I guess this does mean any of these props will work. From what I've read here and in the AOPA forums, I think I like the idea of a climb prop better. It sounds like the 52 then.