Hi Everyone,
I am in the process of having an annual done on N4338B and I have a few questions concerning STCs.
1. My aircraft has STC SA152NW glare shield installed (RJ Shroers owns the STC) but there is no installation instructions and no 337 was filed.
My mechanic is asking for the installation instructions before he will fill out a 337. How do I find these? Does anyone have this same mod that perhaps I could pay for you to fax the installation instructions to me?
2. My aircraft has a chip detector installed but no STC, no paperwork of any sort, no 337... just the chip detector itself... sitting in my plane and working properly... Any suggestions when I don't even have a name or ANY other information other than the actual part (with no identifying marks on it)?
Here is a lesson I've learned:
If you purchase an aircraft from an A&P with IA who has owned the aircraft for 20+ years... make sure you take the entries that they make concerning the work done with a grain of salt... we found my spinner bulkhead with arrows stuck on it indicating the cracks yet it passed it's last annual. <sigh> I could go on and on and on...
Annual produces STC difficulties...
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
Aircraft Paperwork
I'm distressed when I hear of this happening to folks who pay good money for an airplane. It's an example of the sort of thing I try to assist potential aircraft owners to avoid, when I recommend an annual inspection for a pre-buy inspection.
Buying a copy of the "paperwork" from someone who has a legitimate installation of an STC doesn't make your installation legal. Having an IA "find installed in accordance with the STC installation instructions" also does not make it legal. The only way to have a legal installation is to pay the owner of the STC for a legitimate copy (license) for the installation, or to obtain a field approval (unlikely to happen if the STC holder can still be found.)
Two of the worst cases of airplane records I've ever seen were on aircraft previously owned by A&P/IA's. I don't mean to imply that such aircraft or such unscrupulousness is always associated with A&P/IA owned airplanes. It's just that someone who can generate impressive paperwork with the flick of a pen, can be easily tempted to write a lot of fiction. It's sort of like some cops who, originally understanding that their job is to enforce the law, mistakenly begin to believe they are the law!
In one airplane a buddy once bought, the c/s prop was represented in logbooks as being 30 hours since overhaul. In fact, it was only disassembled and re-sealed. That particular prop had to have it's blade threads truncated during overhaul and that was very expensive to do, so the guy just lied, instructed the shop to put it back together, and sold the plane. The airplane had dangerous electrical faults due to improper modifications, ...but that airplane had reams and reams of beautiful records just chock-full of Form 337's and neatly typed-up logbook entries. Of course none of those 337's had ever been mailed in.... When we offered him the opportunity to fix it correctly or inform the FAA, he beat us to the punch by contacting the feds himself and relinquishing his certificate. (He was already retired anyway.) He declared bankruptcy, and my friend never could collect his judgement against the guy.
The other airplane was a straight-tail 182 owned by a A&P/IA in the Dallas area. That airplane was so full of Radio Shack parts and "minor" modifications that it probably influenced Tandy stock prices! Another case of a guy abusing his authority, responsibility and trust. That airplane's records were also heavily documented with Form 337's that had never been submitted to the FAA.
It may be unfair to them, but to be fair to myself and my friends, I inspect A&P/IA owned airplanes closer than anybody's and I'm dubious about the paperwork.
Buying a copy of the "paperwork" from someone who has a legitimate installation of an STC doesn't make your installation legal. Having an IA "find installed in accordance with the STC installation instructions" also does not make it legal. The only way to have a legal installation is to pay the owner of the STC for a legitimate copy (license) for the installation, or to obtain a field approval (unlikely to happen if the STC holder can still be found.)
Two of the worst cases of airplane records I've ever seen were on aircraft previously owned by A&P/IA's. I don't mean to imply that such aircraft or such unscrupulousness is always associated with A&P/IA owned airplanes. It's just that someone who can generate impressive paperwork with the flick of a pen, can be easily tempted to write a lot of fiction. It's sort of like some cops who, originally understanding that their job is to enforce the law, mistakenly begin to believe they are the law!
In one airplane a buddy once bought, the c/s prop was represented in logbooks as being 30 hours since overhaul. In fact, it was only disassembled and re-sealed. That particular prop had to have it's blade threads truncated during overhaul and that was very expensive to do, so the guy just lied, instructed the shop to put it back together, and sold the plane. The airplane had dangerous electrical faults due to improper modifications, ...but that airplane had reams and reams of beautiful records just chock-full of Form 337's and neatly typed-up logbook entries. Of course none of those 337's had ever been mailed in.... When we offered him the opportunity to fix it correctly or inform the FAA, he beat us to the punch by contacting the feds himself and relinquishing his certificate. (He was already retired anyway.) He declared bankruptcy, and my friend never could collect his judgement against the guy.
The other airplane was a straight-tail 182 owned by a A&P/IA in the Dallas area. That airplane was so full of Radio Shack parts and "minor" modifications that it probably influenced Tandy stock prices! Another case of a guy abusing his authority, responsibility and trust. That airplane's records were also heavily documented with Form 337's that had never been submitted to the FAA.
It may be unfair to them, but to be fair to myself and my friends, I inspect A&P/IA owned airplanes closer than anybody's and I'm dubious about the paperwork.
George,
This was an expensive lesson for me to learn... I thought that if the paperwork was right, the plane would be right... not necessarily so.
I found documented oil changes that were not done, annuals which were apparently done on paper only, shoddy workmanship covered up (cracked spinner bulkhead among other things). As you have found; A&P/IA owned planes should be inspected with a MUCH closer eye...
Kinda sad because this particular aircraft was owned by a previous president of the Cessna 170 who happened to be the A&P/IA.
Joe West
This was an expensive lesson for me to learn... I thought that if the paperwork was right, the plane would be right... not necessarily so.
I found documented oil changes that were not done, annuals which were apparently done on paper only, shoddy workmanship covered up (cracked spinner bulkhead among other things). As you have found; A&P/IA owned planes should be inspected with a MUCH closer eye...
Kinda sad because this particular aircraft was owned by a previous president of the Cessna 170 who happened to be the A&P/IA.
Joe West
Joe, you may want to contact the STC holders. On a 172 I owned, there were 2 STC'd items, one of which was Mogas STC, (please don't tell George) and when I contacted EAA with my request for an STC, they told me they already had my aircraft listed (from the serial #) as holding the Mogas STC. They only charged me for the paperwork and at the same time, they changed the paperwork to reflect my name. In both cases, the STC holders were very helpful. I am hoping you may get that lucky... JD
Great advice, JDH. That's what happened when I contacted EAA with me as well when I needed to update my AutoGas STC paperwork!JDH wrote:Joe, you may want to contact the STC holders. On a 172 I owned, there were 2 STC'd items, one of which was Mogas STC, (please don't tell George) and when I contacted EAA with my request for an STC, they told me they already had my aircraft listed (from the serial #) as holding the Mogas STC. They only charged me for the paperwork and at the same time, they changed the paperwork to reflect my name. In both cases, the STC holders were very helpful. I am hoping you may get that lucky... JD
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
STC's
Joe,Bob Schroers of glareshield fame lives in Washington. He quit the flying game & sold his 170 a few years ago,but is still an Assn member & listed in the membership directory. He can probably help out with paperwork.
The only chip detector I recall hearing about was made by ADC,they also sold oil filters. They might be listed in Trade A Plane. Are you sure there's not even a logbook entry listing the make/model of the chip detector? Without a name,it'll be pretty hard to track down any paperwork.
You can always remove the chip detector & glare shield if you can't get the paperwork straightened out. (at least til you're thru with the annual!)
Eric
The only chip detector I recall hearing about was made by ADC,they also sold oil filters. They might be listed in Trade A Plane. Are you sure there's not even a logbook entry listing the make/model of the chip detector? Without a name,it'll be pretty hard to track down any paperwork.
You can always remove the chip detector & glare shield if you can't get the paperwork straightened out. (at least til you're thru with the annual!)
Eric
Re: STC's
With some incredible luck, one of our members; Tom Schulke had the orginal document for the glare shield which he was kind enough to scan and then email to me. I put the scans back together using photoshop and then printed the results; it produced a perfect copy which my mechanic was very happy with. In addition, thanks to your recommendation I contacted ADC and they are sending me the STC and installation paperwork for a $10 Fee.
Thanks to the help of this group; I'll be back in the air tomorrow.
Note to George: I'll send you the name as soon as I get my paperwork back and you'll understand the name of the past president of the 170 club who owned this aircraft...
Kind Regards,
Joe
Thanks to the help of this group; I'll be back in the air tomorrow.
Note to George: I'll send you the name as soon as I get my paperwork back and you'll understand the name of the past president of the 170 club who owned this aircraft...
Kind Regards,
Joe
zero.one.victor wrote:Joe,Bob Schroers of glareshield fame lives in Washington. He quit the flying game & sold his 170 a few years ago,but is still an Assn member & listed in the membership directory. He can probably help out with paperwork.
The only chip detector I recall hearing about was made by ADC,they also sold oil filters. They might be listed in Trade A Plane. Are you sure there's not even a logbook entry listing the make/model of the chip detector? Without a name,it'll be pretty hard to track down any paperwork.
You can always remove the chip detector & glare shield if you can't get the paperwork straightened out. (at least til you're thru with the annual!)
Eric
Note to all....
Note to readers:
Mr. West is incorrect. The person to whom he refers is not a former TIC170A president. -gahorn
Mr. West is incorrect. The person to whom he refers is not a former TIC170A president. -gahorn
337's
Just a quick note as to what I've heard lately. On the topic of 337's and getting the history on your plane. It appears that the FAA has not always been forwarding the 337's or have been slow and keeping them in their local files. I have always tried to get my copy stamped and signed, but they don't want to do that anymore for some reason. Lance
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FlyingJack
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 6:53 pm
Re: 337's
I would concur. A friend of mine who is an FAA examiner told me she was recently in an office where 337s were stacked up on the floor around another FAA person's desk higher than the desk top itself. Just because you filed it doesn't mean it's been entered in their database.Watkinsnv wrote:Just a quick note as to what I've heard lately. On the topic of 337's and getting the history on your plane. It appears that the FAA has not always been forwarding the 337's or have been slow and keeping them in their local files. I have always tried to get my copy stamped and signed, but they don't want to do that anymore for some reason. Lance
ok Joe tell us what happened.
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 4338B Make/Model: C170 Description: 1955 CESSNA 170B
Date: 05/19/2002 Time: 1710
Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial
LOCATION
City: SHOW LOW State: AZ Country: US
DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT GROUND LOOPED ON LANDING, SHOW LOW, AZ
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: UNKN
OTHER DATA
Activity: Pleasure Phase: Landing Operation: General Aviation
Departed: MESA, AZ Dep Date: 05/19/2002 Dep. Time: 1505
Destination: SHOW LOW, AZ Flt Plan: VFR Wx Briefing: Y
Last Radio Cont: DEPARTING FFZ ACTIVATE FLIGHT PLAN
Last Clearance: U
FAA FSDO: SCOTTSDALE, AZ (WP07) Entry date: 05/20/2002
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 4338B Make/Model: C170 Description: 1955 CESSNA 170B
Date: 05/19/2002 Time: 1710
Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial
LOCATION
City: SHOW LOW State: AZ Country: US
DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT GROUND LOOPED ON LANDING, SHOW LOW, AZ
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: UNKN
OTHER DATA
Activity: Pleasure Phase: Landing Operation: General Aviation
Departed: MESA, AZ Dep Date: 05/19/2002 Dep. Time: 1505
Destination: SHOW LOW, AZ Flt Plan: VFR Wx Briefing: Y
Last Radio Cont: DEPARTING FFZ ACTIVATE FLIGHT PLAN
Last Clearance: U
FAA FSDO: SCOTTSDALE, AZ (WP07) Entry date: 05/20/2002
Tim