Engine sputtering and low static RPM?!

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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: Engine sputtering and low static RPM?!

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

I'm particularly proud of my quick absolute correct assessment of a stuck valve from my arm chair 2000 miles away :lol:

You don't need to pull the cylinders. That is nuts. The most time consuming part is pulling the valve covers.

See if you can find a mechanic who will clean and ream the valves buy disassembling the valve springs and pushing the valve into the cylinder then back out a spark plug hole to clean the valve stem and then the ream the guide clean. Feed the valve right back into the cylinder and reassemble the valve spring and rocker arms.

I've done this in the field with nothing more than two screw drivers and some safety wire in an hour. With the right tools it is even easier. But the hardest tool you will probably find in this situation is the tool called experience. The experience to do this operation as I described. I'd ask around before any disassembly took place.

Good luck.
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Re: Engine sputtering and low static RPM?!

Post by cessna170bdriver »

Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:I'm particularly proud of my quick absolute correct assessment of a stuck valve from my arm chair 2000 miles away :lol:
Bruce is a much better mechanic than he is a navigator. KUKT-KSGJ =700nautical/800statute. Now, KEDW-KSGJ=1865nautical/2145statute, and I got there before he did. :lol:
Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:You don't need to pull the cylinders. That is nuts. The most time consuming part is pulling the valve covers.

See if you can find a mechanic who will clean and ream the valves buy disassembling the valve springs and pushing the valve into the cylinder then back out a spark plug hole to clean the valve stem and then the ream the guide clean. Feed the valve right back into the cylinder and reassemble the valve spring and rocker arms.

I've done this in the field with nothing more than two screw drivers and some safety wire in an hour. With the right tools it is even easier. But the hardest tool you will probably find in this situation is the tool called experience. The experience to do this operation as I described. I'd ask around before any disassembly took place.

Good luck.
I've done this several times (until I quit using auto fuel and MMO :twisted: ) and found that tying a piece of dental floss to the keeper grooves in the valve stem makes it easier to get the valve out through the spark plug hole. Even if you have to pull the floss all the way through to ream the guide, I've found it easier to capture the floss with safety wire than it is to capture the valve stem.
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Re: Engine sputtering and low static RPM?!

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

cessna170bdriver wrote:KUKT-KSGJ =700nautical/800statute. Now, KEDW-KSGJ=1865nautical/2145statute, and I got there before he did.
You would be assuming I was in or around UKT and I had a direct flight. And you hedged your bet with two possibilities while I went right for to the target. :lol: (I knew I should have thought more about that distance before I threw that out but what the heck. Who would notice a mere 1200 mile mistake after such brilliant trouble shooting :roll: )

I've tried the dental floss and it did work but I needed to guide the valve with the safety wire as well.
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Re: Engine sputtering and low static RPM?!

Post by minton »

Marvel mystery oil!!!!!!
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Re: Engine sputtering and low static RPM?!

Post by ginbug92b »

I have used car gas for 40 years and never had a stuck valve or any other problems. I've never used Marvel Mystery oil. Every stuck valve I have seen has been the result of using 100 OCT in an engine designed for 80.
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Re: Engine sputtering and low static RPM?!

Post by Hattrick »

Thanks for the replies guys... I found an awesome IA, with years of experience with the older Continental engines, that has offered his help over the next couple days to clean these valves so I plan on learning a ton during this process.

As I don't have easy access to non ethynol auto gas... I'm forced to use 100LL, so I'll make sure to start using an additive like TCP to help prevent this issue from popping up again any time soon.
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Re: Engine sputtering and low static RPM?!

Post by canav8 »

minton wrote:Any body thinking fuel venting?? sounds like "gulping" caused by plugged fuel vent(s)
Minton,
Interesting thought, I guess I have never seen that one before. If fuel vent was clogged, I thought it would create a vacuum and starve for fuel, not really gulp, but after thinking about it, its plausable. Do you have any experience with that? Doug
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Re: Engine sputtering and low static RPM?!

Post by canav8 »

N8314A wrote:Thanks for the replies guys... I found an awesome IA, with years of experience with the older Continental engines, that has offered his help over the next couple days to clean these valves so I plan on learning a ton during this process.

As I don't have easy access to non ethynol auto gas... I'm forced to use 100LL, so I'll make sure to start using an additive like TCP to help prevent this issue from popping up again any time soon.
Mark, TCP is not really necessary if you agressively lean. I have thousands of TCM hours and have never had stuck valves, thank god.
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Re: Engine sputtering and low static RPM?!

Post by cessna170bdriver »

Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:You would be assuming I was in or around UKT and I had a direct flight,,.
I guess I'm just guilty of assuming you don't have very many armchairs 2000 miles from home. :lol:

ginbug92b wrote:I have used car gas for 40 years and never had a stuck valve or any other problems. I've never used Marvel Mystery oil. Every stuck valve I have seen has been the result of using 100 OCT in an engine designed for 80.
It's interesting how different folks' experiences differ. Every stuck valve and stuck ring I've ever had has been the result of using auto fuel in an engine designed for 80. Every single one was the result of carbon buildup; never lead. Exhaust always ran sooty on auto, clean on 100LL. I had a friend in Louisiana (not you, Ron!) who swore up and down that auto fuel ran better in his Cherokee than 100LL. He also admitted that if 100LL were cheaper than auto fuel IT would probably run better. My recommendation to all would be to keep doing what has worked for them.

canav8 wrote:TCP is not really necessary if you agressively lean.
I second that. It may happen the next time I fly, but I would estimate about a thousand hours over the last 16 years on a steady diet of 100LL with NO additives and agressive leaning without a stuck valve or ring.
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Re: Engine sputtering and low static RPM?!

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Yes it is interesting how different folks experience is. At least two folks here have said they never have stuck valve issues which I find hard to believe given my experience of having several in both my A-65 and C-145.

I can't say MOGAS had anything to do with it because for the most part my stuck valves have come shortly after buying the aircraft and I don't know but assume the engine was feed 100LL. When I could get ethanol free MOGAS that is all I would run unless on a trip. I would use MMO in the gas regularly at less till the bottle was empty then I'd miss a few tanks till I remembered to get more. I can't say I've had a stuck valve running primarily MOGAS mostly with MMO but then again I've done preemptive valve and valve guide cleaning. I have never aggressively leaned my airplanes and in the case of the Cub can not.

My last stuck valve was after running 100LL and no MMO for about two years or 75-100 hours. I'd guess I had about 250 hours running a mix of MOGAS, MMO and 100LL before that or a total of about 350 hours since the cylinders were overhauled to the first stuck valve.

So it seems to me that I've had the best stretch of luck running MOGAS and that had MMO in it most times and so if it was available would be my fuel of choice. Regardless of fuel or additives though it seems that I need to clean valves about every 400 hours and so that is what I do whether they are sticking or not.

Mark it would be unusual I'd think to have two valves actually stick at the same time as you did but obviously possible. This is not to say you can't have several sticky valves at the same time. In fact it is my opinion that if one valve is sticky they all are likely to be sticky. My advice is that you plan to look at all the exhaust valves. Your already doing #2 and #4 so I'd also do #6 while you have the tools out and the cowl and baffle off. Then some time in the near future do the other side. Then you will know where you stand.
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Re: Engine sputtering and low static RPM?!

Post by Hattrick »

Thanks Bruce,
Yes I plan on inspecting and cleaning at a minimum #'s 2, 4, and 6 today... I may even do #'s 1, 3, and 5 on Saturday to give myself better piece of mind... As for more than one valve sticking there is a slight chance that these valves are bent. One of the A&P's that looked at the plane yesterday (ZERO Continental experience) noticed the rockers were slightly off center on some of the valves (but to me did not look like they were pushing the valves in at an angle). Here's to hoping these valves are simply stuck. We also noticed that the rocker arms had different numbers... some said H24 some said H23 on them... Don't know if that's anything significant but may explain why some of the rockers are slightly off center??
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Re: Engine sputtering and low static RPM?!

Post by 170C »

It is rather interesting to see the different results of different plane owners. One has to wonder what the difference is between one engine and another. I ran a LOT of mogas in my O300B between 1989 & 1999 and, fortunately, I never had a stuck valve. One time at annual I did experience a leaking exhaust valve which my IA felt was some carbon holding it open. I pulled the valve cover, banged on the rocker arm with a rubber mallet several times, cranked it up & flew it and, again fortunately, the problem went away. I overhauled the engine in 1999 & since then have only run 2-3 tanks of mogas through the engine due to the crap they put in mogas these days (thank you Uncle Sam & the lobby groups) plus initially after the overhaul ECI said burning mogas would void their warranty. Every annual I find lead in my lower plugs. Some have minor & at least one will have a bunch. My IA suggests aggressive leaning in flight & also while taxiing. I try to do so. Another IA on the field says leaning while taxiing doesn't accomplish anything because the temps in the cylinders aren't high enough to burn out the lead deposits. Another IA at a different airport believes one should run the rpms up just prior to shutdown & as you pull out the mixture to shut down you should push the throttle in all the way to purge fuel from the engine :? I have been lucky so far not to have experienced a stuck value and hope this continues. One of our now deceased members experienced multiple stuck valves and he almost always burned mogas. Last year at one of our fly ins another member, who almost always burns mogas, experienced a stuck valve. SO, it remains a mystery whether mogas or 100LL is more prone to sticking valves. Sure would be nice if there was a simple solution that would fit all C-O300/145 engines.
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Re: Engine sputtering and low static RPM?!

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Mark the valves are not bent. The rockers do not push squarely in the center of the the tops of the valves.

More on the rockers after I've done some research but they can be the same on both the intake and exhaust or they can be different, but look the same. I need to review the exact difference between them which has to do with the oil path.
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Re: Engine sputtering and low static RPM?!

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

OK Mark. Here is the deal. If you have an old C-145 and maybe a 0-300 the rockers were the same intake or exhaust. At some point Continental eliminated the oil hole which ran from the rocker shaft to the end of the rocker that pushes on the intake valve to help eliminate oil running down the valve stem and into the cylinder. So you must have a rocker with an oil hole from the shaft to the valve tip and you can have one on the intake but if you have later rockers you won't.

Make sure you put the rockers back where they came from and you should be all right assuming someone else at least put the correct rocker in the exhaust side.

I said your valves aren't bent and I doubt they are, as the rocker tip and the valve don't line up centered. But of course the valve guide could be worn on one side allowing the valve to lean more in one direction that it should and that should be addressed.

While you are cleaning the valve stems you should be doing a few other inspections. Take a good look at the valve face and the valve seat. You may want to lap your valve to improve this. You should also be checking the valve guide wear to be sure it is within tolerance. If the valve, valve seat or guide needs work any more than a light touch up of the valve face and seat with compound, you are looking at cylinder removal. You should be looking at the rocker arm bushings, shaft and boss for wear. It should also go without saying that you should also be doing the best visual inspection you can for cracks in the cylinder paying particular attention to the areas between the valve seats and the spark plug holes. You should also be looking at the rocker shaft boss which actually has to be magnafluxed for cracks under an AD it the cylinder is removed.

Obviously it helps to have experience how and what to look at with these cylinders. Glad you think you have found someone who will help that has more experience at it than the first guy who helped.
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Re: Engine sputtering and low static RPM?!

Post by GAHorn »

This discussion reminds me that diagnostics need to be addressed from a logical starting point and progress thru to a logical conclusion. Some basics were skipped as assumptions were adopted without proof.

Example:
Stuck valves can be detected by simply "pulling the prop thru" and listening to the exhaust/intakes hissing in conjuction with loss of compression on the affected cylinders. This would likely have brought us to the diagnosis very early. (I often fail to acknowlege some owner's level of experience and then fall into this trap.)

As for leaning to prevent lead build-up: Yes, leaning aggressively is important to raise EGTs to the point that bromide additives (already included in 100LL) can do the job intended of lead-scavenging. This is generally recognized as being above 1200F and many power settings on carb engines run cooler than that when rich. (TCP also requires high EGTs to be effective.) Frequent experience with stuck valves is likely contributed-to by lack of aggressive leaning, especially in non-mixture-equipped Cubs run occasionally on avgas. :wink:

Advancing the throttle during shut-down is NOT a good practice for several reasons. The most important reason NOT to advance the throttle during shut-down is that the carburetor incorporates an "accelerator pump" which is a plunger designed to give a "shot" of raw fuel into the carb-throat to assist in sudden acceleration, and avoid backfiring due to a suddenly-opened throttle-plate and the associated overly-lean condition. By advancing the throttle duiring shut-down one is actually injecting additional fuel into the intakes. (The accelerator pump by-passes the mixture, and the shot of fuel is, needless to say, VERY rich...and therefore full of lead, delivered while the engine actually has low EGT...so the lead fouling is increased with each shut-down so-performed.) Early carbs did not have enriched/accelerator pumps and the technique of advancing the throttle was a method of suddenly subjecting such a carb/engine combination with a lean condition during shut-down. Old-timers who learned the technique have passed it along without realizing it does not apply to subsequent designs which are now prevalent.
"Note: Do not open throttle after stopping. Opening the throttle actuates the accelerator pump." -Operator's Handbook, C-Series, 6-Cylinder Continental Motors Corp., page 10.

Leaning during taxy is a good technique as long as the pilot knows the proper technique. Although it varies in effectiveness in different installations, the desired result is much less fuel being fed to the engine during low-power operation. Less fuel thru the engine (especially during lower EGT-operation such as taxying) means less lead on the plugs and valves during the period maximum lead may accumulate due to the low temps. I personally do not lean during taxy on this carb/engine combination but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea as long as the pilot doesn't forget before takeoff. (Proponents of the technique recommend taxying SO lean as to cause the engine to cough/die if much power is asked of the engine such as during takeoff.) When I fly fuel-injected engines I always taxy aggressively leaned, but this is a personal choice for me on this carburetor. (I'm one who's never experienced a stuck valve on my own airplane.......so far.) :roll: I use only avgas, no snake oil, aggressively lean in-flight, and allow engine temps to stabilze before shutdown. (It's my personal opinion that many stuck valves are caused by coked oil (carbon) caused by hot engines being shut down too soon after flight. It's always a good idea IMO to taxy at low power (less than 1000 RPM) for a couple minutes and/or face the wind and idle a couple minutes before shutdown. Idling at 800 RPM and pulling the mixture without advancing throttle is my preference.

Snake oil/Marvel Mystery oil is a favorite among some operators who believe it's claim to lubricate upper cylinders.
The presumption for most is that it softens carbon and helps prevent valve sticking. Many C-190/195 owners swear by it.
I believe jet fuel or diesel is cheaper, no red dye or perfume needed, and just as legal to add to avgas and just as effectively negates the legality of mogas STCs. :twisted:

(I can't help but wonder if it doesn't contain an anti-scuffing, lubricity-enhancer known as tri-cresyl phosphate as one of it's "mysteries".) Hmmmmn....

(Bruce and I were both typing simultaneously, and after I posted I had opportunity to read his excellent remarks.
I'd like to express a different opinion on a couple things:
It's not a good idea to "lap" valves which are not leaking, and it's never a good idea to do it with the cylinder on the engine. I believe Mark is seeking a solution that does not include removing cylinders.

Also, the rockers which incorporate oil passages are required on all exhaust valves.
Here's the SB:
M77-19RockerArms.pdf
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