Cost of ownership??

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 12:49 pm

I am researching the cost of ownership of a 170 before I buy. Can anyone give me information about the costs? ie How much does an annual cost, yearly insurance cost, general maintainance, hanger fees etc. Any help would be appreciated. Dreaming of a 170!

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 1:37 pm

In the last 12 months,I've spent exactly $5,789 flying my 170. I fly alot,about 175 hours a year (I don't have the exact tach times here at home),so this works out to about $33 an hour,which is pretty low. This includes hangar rent,full insurance,maintenance & minor repairs,and an annual inspection,but does NOT include any money put away toward overhaul or long-term repair costs.
In the 5-3/4 years I've owned my 170,I've spent $47,300 flying it. Logging 992 tach hours. that works out to $8,226 per year or $47.68 an hour,and includes overhauling the engine & accessories about 2 years ago.
Airplane ownership ain't cheap,but even including overhaul costs I've spent less money flying the 170 than I would have renting (even a Cessna 150!) for the same number of hours.
If you fly less,your total costs will be less but it will work out to be more per hour. Figure $500 for an annual( plus any necesary repairs) and $1000-1200 a year for insurance if you're fairly low-time.
Go ahead & take the pluinge--you'll be glad you did!

Eric

Eric

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 2:59 pm

Thanks Eric. I owned a Cessna 140 20+ years ago and loved every hour of it. Flew lots of hours xcountry from upstate NY out of a grass strip to Denver. Made 3 round trips. I am ready to get back into ownership again. Would love a 170b with the 4 seats now that we have an 11-year-old daughter. Looks just like the 140. I just got checked out in 172s a couple of weeks ago after not flying for about 15 years. Nice to be airborne again. I have about 350+ hours in the 140 and about 1650 total time. We are heading to Oshkosh the end of the month. There is a 170A at the Aero club here but seems to be pretty neglected. Don't know if it is for sale. Would like something in better shape. I have seen 170s from $30K to over $50K. Big price difference. Thanks again for your information and encouragement. This forum has been helpful and I will join once I purchase. GARY Suffolk, VA

Mike Smith · Post by **Mike Smith** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 3:32 pm

Gary,
I'll be at OSH for the first 2 or 3 days in my C-170A. I also had a C-140A for a few years. I now have two boys so I wanted 4 seats. I just bought mine so I dont' have a history of cost, but just like the trusty 'ol C-140 it'll cost every penny you choose to put into it. Look me up at OSH. It's white with a blue stripe and tail #9953A. We'll be camping in the showplane area (me and my older son).

Mike Smith
1950 C-170A

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 4:14 am

Checked my records,I flew a bit more than I estimated over the last year--about 190 hours. The costs therefore work out to $30.46 an hour,not including reserves.
I've thought many times about "moving up" to a Skywagon,but the higher operating costs as well as the much higher purchase price of the 180 always make me decide to stick with the trusty 170. It's pretty hard to beat!

Eric

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:37 am

Eric, Wow, $30 an hour for flight is great. I am ready to take the plunge once I find a 170. The airshow will sure give me some ideas. I have been looking on line and have gleened a great deal of information.
Mike, thanks for the invite to visit with you at the airshow. I will look you up when we get there. Would love to talk to you and see your 170. Thanks for the info. Gary

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 3:05 am

Don't be afraid to check out the lower-priced ones. My ragwing was the first 170 I looked at, low asking price,but I passed on it cuz I wanted someting shinier & didn't mind paying more to get it. After looking at about 7 others--some shinier,some not,but all more expensive--I decided that the others weren't any better,just more expensive! I ended up buying it for less than the already-low asking price cuz the owner wasn't even getting any calls on it. I think people just assumed it was a junker by the price. Their loss,my gain!

Eric

Mike Smith · Post by **Mike Smith** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:35 am

I agree with Eric!

Mike

susang777 · Post by **susang777** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:39 am

We did a spreadsheet on the costs associated with our 55 170B and came up with the following:

Costs per hour:
Fuel and oil plus maintenance reserves: $33.10
(Fuel & oil only: $14.25)
Annual, tie-down, insurance: $36.05
Total: $69.15

This is about $9000 per year, or $750 per month, which includes reserves for engine overhaul and anything else we could think of. It is based on information we found from the Cessna Pilot's Association, and is a rough model for beginner planning purposes only.

Actual has been slightly less than expected because of lower unscheduled maintenance and repair than planned for. <crossing fingers and toes>

Last year, the airplane flew about 100 hours (almost all was John's time). We added an oil filter system at the annual, and there were minor repairs to the electrical system and intercom, so if I did my quick math correctly, it cost about $5600 actual (~$470/mo.), without reserves.

The airplane is a heavily used but carefully maintained 55 170B with several minor modifications, originally used as a trainer by Embry-Riddle then a group of instructors, then as a missionary plane in Florida, and for the last 30 years has been in John's family. It has 9000+ hours on it, and the engine has 200+ hours since major overhaul. It has an auto gas STC, and we use auto gas primarily, with 100LL once every 8 fill-ups or so to keep the valves lubricated. Insurance is higher because of John's low time, about $1100 per year right now, for liability only.

Post by **GAHorn** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 5:40 pm

Horn's rule of airplane costs: Take any airplane model. Double it's hourly cost of fuel and oil. That answer will be within 10% of it's annual hourly direct operating costs. (Fuel, oil, maintenance reserves.)
Double it again, and you'll have the total costs (direct/indirect) costs over a 100-300-hour year.
Catastrophic losses are not included. (You bought a junker that shelled out it's engine or ran the wing into the ground or a tree, etc.)

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:45 am

Thank you for the information all. It gives me an idea what I am getting into. I owned my Cessna 140 about 25 years ago and things were a bit different. I found some of my old receipts for fuel for gas 100 grade at $.74 a gal. back in 1977. Can some one tell me what an STC is and what is involved with the auto gas STC? I am meeting one of my old Airforce buddies tonight at the airport as he has an over night (he is a captain with Northwest) here in Norfolk. He owns a 170b. I will drill him for all the information I can get in the short visit we have. Thanks again for all the information from all those who have responded. I will take a better look at the 170 A sitting at the club. GARY

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 4:24 am

gahorn wrote:Horn's rule of airplane costs: Take any airplane model. Double it's hourly cost of fuel and oil. That answer will be within 10% of it's annual hourly direct operating costs. (Fuel, oil, maintenance reserves.)
Double it again, and you'll have the total costs (direct/indirect) costs over a 100-300-hour year.
Catastrophic losses are not included. (You bought a junker that shelled out it's engine or ran the wing into the ground or a tree, etc.)

Let's see.....8 gph at $2.50 a gallon equals $20,plus a buck for oil equals 21,times 2 equals $42 direct costs,times 2 again equals $84 an hour total (dirct/indirect) costs.
Let's try that again,figuring car gas...8 gph at $1.50 plus a buck for oil equals $13,times 4 equals $52.
Seems high,George,even using the lower car gas price,in my experience anyway. Maybe OK for planning worst case scenario.

Eric

Post by **GAHorn** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 5:12 am

Eric, it costs over $10/hr for engine reserves. (Look at the Blue Book type values.) Airframe time costs as much as engine time. That's $20. With another $20 for fuel, etc., it seems pretty close to me. (Fuel costs are all over the place right now. I pay $1.80 only 10 miles from my house for 100LL at BMQ. The closest place to me is 88R where they charge $2.00/gal.) If you want to rent it out, (or if you wanted to go rent one) you're gonna pay about $80/hour. Again, that seems pretty close to me.
It holds true for other types also.

rudymantel · Post by **rudymantel** » Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:18 am

Cost of operation-
I try not to think about it...
Rudy

Alterfede · Post by **Alterfede** » Sat Jul 12, 2003 1:46 pm

ME TOO!!!!!
Prices are mostly doubled here in argentina