Looking to become a 170 owner

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

You know engines are really a crap shoot. In this case you could just run it and it might go a few hours till there are problems. It might just as easy last to TBO. You could pull it apart to find nothing wrong and damage it just with the check. You could also have another engine that is not suspect of anything in particular and it last forever or blow a cylinder off in an hour. And then there are those that subscribe to the theory that a new or newly overhauled engine is an unproven engine.

Really the discussion of the engine in this case is more education what might transpire. We'd all hate to hear this or any other plane in the same circumstance was bought and then the buyer found he had a bad engine and had no clue it could be bad when we could have clued him to the facts.

Personally I'd take this engine for what it is, probably good but maybe not. I'd look it over with minimal disassembly aided by a borescope.

Then if the rest of the plane pans out I'd make an offer based on the whole package.

[mike roe]

I think the bigger issue is the corrosion in the wings so bad as to warrant replacement of skins and spars. I would look very closely at the fuselage and control surfaces for signs of corrosion also.

[cowboy]

While I can't comment on the condition of the 170A of which you are looking (dreaming), I actually have looked at that very airplane several times. I recently acquired a 1950 'A' and while I was deciding I spent many hours looking at 170s at both Merrill and Lake Hood. Many times I spent time making nose prints on "your" plane... sorry. It looks like a very nice airplane. I live in northern Wyoming at 4200 and just love my 170. And, yes, mine has the C-145. I'd like a Lyc O-360 but I'm very happy. Good luck.

A Wyoming "Cowboy"

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Mike has a good point about the corrosion. If it was in the wings, it could be other places it hasn't been found or addressed. Corrosion unfortunately has to be part of our dictionary and something to be looking for regardless if it was found in the wings.

Corrosion and airworthiness can bring as many opinions as a Ford verses Chevy debate. Some folks won't tolerate any corrosion, others live with it as a natural occurrence. Chances are this airplane would have flown safely for another 20 years with the corrosion. But this owner at this moment decided that for the work he wanted to perform ie paint and maybe for resale value it was time to rebuild and replace the corroded parts. Good for him, maybe great for you.

[pdb]

The guys here have given you the good information about internal engine rust, corrosion, magnetos, and getting an annual inspection done by your mechanic, etc. All good advice, ignore it at your peril.

When it comes to adding mods and becoming a bush pilot, take a deep breath. There is no need to go out and spend a ton of money just yet except perhaps to throw on a pair of 8:50 x6s and make certain you have the strong axles. The 850s look cool and they let you go to most places you want to go and many that you shouldn't, at least for a while. They are the single most cost efficient and needed mod for bars and beaches and they add safety as well.

For the time being, forget the climb prop, gear mod, and Sportsman's stol kit. They are all great too but most likely you aren't ready for them just yet. Spend the money on avgas and learn to fly your plane. There are simply way too many cool places to go and things to do. Focus on learning to extract performance from your wings, not your wallet.

When you have started to figure things out, which will likely take longer than you recognize now, you will be in a position to better evaluate what mods you want/need.

First thing to do to enhance performance, take out unnecessary weight. There is nothing easier, cheaper or more effective mod than to remove weight. Start with the back seat which is a 30 lb boat anchor.

When you scrape up the money. Buy an 80-40 climb prop. Its the single best take off enhancer you can buy but be prepared to fly slower.

When you scrape up more money, get a STOL kit. If cost is no object, get the Sportsman's mod. If cost is an issue, ignore the rabble on this board and get VGs. You won't take off or climb faster but you will land slower and will have enhanced low speed control.

When you get more money, put in a single Atlee Dodge seat. The 170 is lousy 4 seat airplane. The Atlee Dodge seat is a great weight saver.

Keep the stock gear until you bust something. It works just fine if you can fly. If you can't fly, learn to. At the end of the day, that's the best mod.

[c170b53]

Just my thoughts; if the wings had corrosion to the extent it was of an airworthiness concern then the entire airplane would have had issues. Could you be looking at one plane or three? Even though the books should tell all, when things have gotten tough in the past, they may not tell all. As many here who have been so giving in providing sage advice and help, the most common comment is; have it inspected by someone who will not gain by the transaction and whom is knowledgeable in the type.
As for the type of plane, well we are all homer's here. In my case buying my 170 was one of my greatest "Forrest Gump" moments. And I've had a few.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Pete, your entire post is right on. I couldn't agree more.

I've highlighted the cream of it below.

If you can't fly, learn to. At the end of the day, that's the best mod.

When you have started to figure things out, which will likely take longer than you recognize now, you will be in a position to better evaluate what mods you want/need.

[jrenwick]

...There is nothing easier, cheaper or more effective mod than to remove weight. Start with the back seat which is a 30 lb boat anchor.

Right, and be sure to check your weight and balance. If you're empty in back with a couple of big boys in front, your C.G. could easily be out of range forward.

[GAHorn]

Pete, your entire post is right on. I couldn't agree more.

I've highlighted the cream of it below.

If you can't fly, learn to. At the end of the day, that's the best mod.

When you have started to figure things out, which will likely take longer than you recognize now, you will be in a position to better evaluate what mods you want/need.

Yeah...except for that "rabble" comment....

[cmsusllc]

All I can say is AMEN Brother to Pete, best stated advice I've seen.
Scott.....53B.....with at least 15 STC's

[907Pilot]

Got a ton of questions answered today about the plane, and now I just have a few more for you guys here.

You are correct about when it was weighed. They filled the tanks, then subtracted the gas back out. They weighed it right after re-painting it and repairing the wings and tanks, which I suppose has something to do with it. It does have a cruise prop on it, because the owner had it on skis at one point and decided that was the best prop for it then. As a side note, he also bought Goodyear 26 inch tires for it at one point.

I also got to see before and after pictures of the extent of work that has been done to the plane, as well as every receipt of work that has been done since he has owned it.

I intent to give my mechanic a call tomorrow to have him borescope the engine and find the cost of that. After reviewing the work that was done on it and seeing the pictures and receipts, I am pretty confident of everything except the engine.

First question is how complex of a job is it to borescope an engine? Is this like a one week thing or like a 1 day thing?

Second question is what do you know about an L19 tailwheel mod for the 170? What purpose would this serve?

[GAHorn]

The L-19 tailwheel mod question is too vague to be easily addressed. The L19 used the Scott 3200 just like is applicable to the 170, but there are minor variations of little actual significance. One L19 mod is a tie-down eyebolt,...a handy device, if t hat's what you meant.

Cost of Boroscoping the engine will be determined by how much you want him to look at. Looking at the cyls is a simple job of pulling the plugs, which he'll do during a compression test anyway. Looking thru the sump drain, or magneto mount would be an hour or two, perhaps.

[wingnut]

Just my thoughts; if the wings had corrosion to the extent it was of an airworthiness concern then the entire airplane would have had issues. Could you be looking at one plane or three?.....

Jim,
4 or 5 years ago, I would have had the same thought, and made the same statement as you have regarding the corrosion. However, recent experience has caused me to think about this differently. We have worked on several Cessna 170's, and early vintage 172 and 175's, that have had extensive wing and hor stab corrosion, that have had very little or no fuselage corrosion. What we are finding on these vintage aircraft is corrosion of extrusions and places where multiple layers of doublers/reinforcements are used, such as the spar caps and sta 100 spar splices. I think there was a flawed process in the manufacture of the extrusions during that time period. Extrusions in the fuselage are the firewall attach angles, a few belly and cabin top skin stiffener angles and the tail wheel structure angles that extend forward from the aft bulkhead.

[GAHorn]

Just my thoughts; if the wings had corrosion to the extent it was of an airworthiness concern then the entire airplane would have had issues. Could you be looking at one plane or three?.....

Jim,
4 or 5 years ago, I would have had the same thought, and made the same statement as you have regarding the corrosion. However, recent experience has caused me to think about this differently. We have worked on several Cessna 170's, and early vintage 172 and 175's, that have had extensive wing and hor stab corrosion, that have had very little or no fuselage corrosion. What we are finding on these vintage aircraft is corrosion of extrusions and places where multiple layers of doublers/reinforcements are used, such as the spar caps and sta 100 spar splices. I think there was a flawed process in the manufacture of the extrusions during that time period. Extrusions in the fuselage are the firewall attach angles, a few belly and cabin top skin stiffener angles and the tail wheel structure angles that extend forward from the aft bulkhead.

I sincerely relish the thought of the day we can hold a mx seminar at Del's hangar with Jim McIntosh (c170b53) and Del Lehmann (wingnut) co-hosting on the subject of corrosion! Del is one of the most talented airframe/sheet-metal-men I've ever seen and Jim is a corrosion-specialist for Air Canada. We are so fortunate to have these guys in our group!

[907Pilot]

Oh ya, I forgot I was going to reply about the corrosion on the wings and the full reasoning they were worked on.

In 1971, the plane suffered a ground loop and the wing was repaired in the field. The current owner has had the repair looked at every annual since he has owned it as in his words "it was a really shoddy field repair". He had other stuff to say that wasn't so great, but I want to edit my post with the tail number and remove it before I go into that. Anyway, he has had the wings inspected over and over again since then and they found extensive corrosion on the area where the wing attaches to the fuselage. Back in 2008, he decided that he was going to sell it eventually. Rather than deal with the eventual liability, they tore the aircraft all the way down to bare metal and took the wings off. The wings were completely rebuilt and the fuselage was gone through head to toe. I have a 3 inch binder full of receipts, most of which were from that.

While he was showing me the pictures from the rebuild, he pointed out pictures of the tail when it was bare and tried to explain to me the L19 mod which I don't fully understand. They drilled additional holes in the are of the fuselage where the empenage is bolted all together. He then tried to explain how the mod works but I totally don't understand what he was saying. Something about double layered sheet metal? I asked him what he meant and he explained it again, but I just don't really understand the benefit of the mod or really what it is. He just said "ya, the L19 mod" and look in the aircraft logs.

I apologize for my ignorance in the subject. I tend to be a smart guy about a lot of things, but has anyone ever considered that the intimidation factor is why a lot of guys start of to be a pilot and then an owner, but quit half way through? That's pretty much where I am in the process. I mean, I have the money to buy a plane, but... well the engine might not be perfect and that means I might have to write a $20k check. I might ground loop tomorrow and that means I might have to write a $20k check. I might have major corrosion and that means I have to write a $20k check.

It's just intimidating to be totally honest. I just have this thought running through my head over and over that if it weren't for the lawsuits, this would be a non issue.

-Matt