800x6 cleveland wheels and brake conversion kit

[runerider]

This topic has been beat to death but I need a part number for the conversion kit that works on a 170B. I would prefer the single puck,but would use a duel puck brake if that's all that will work. The rep at cleveland was no help at all said it was illegal.

[GAHorn]

As Jack Nicholson would say, "HEEERES the DEEEEL...."
.....The airplane was originally approved for 600, 700, or 800 X 6 tires per the TCDS....used on GOODYEAR WHEELS. (see the note under Item 202, re: Item 201)

Cleveland certified their 40-75 wheels using 600 X 6 tires. I suspect a lot of folks are operating without approval for larger tires because they think their type certificate approves them....but it doesn't with Cleveland wheels. (The Cleveland STC conversion instructions, Note 5, specifies 600 X 6 tires.)

You'll need another basis of approval.

Even the Cleveland conversion kit for C-180/185/206 aircraft are limited to 600 X 6 tires (same wheels, different brakes).... and I imagine quite a few of them are unaware of this little technical illegality.

Sooo.... despite super-human efforts to avoid this scenario.... Bruce is actually one of the few who is quite ORIGINAL and legal in this regard. heh-heh

AnyHoo....the Cleveland conversion kit was originally their PN 199-46 using 30-97 wheels, but Spruce lists : PN 199-60, single puck using 40-75 wheels approved for C170, and 199-62 double puck with 40-75 wheels not specified for c170.

I haven't researched the minor differences between those wheel pn changes, probably not much.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Sooo.... despite super-human efforts to avoid this scenario.... Bruce is actually one of the few who is quite ORIGINAL and legal in this regard. heh-heh

So as not to confuse this issue, this is because I'm one of the few still running original Goodyear wheels which I have legally mounted 7:00x6 tires. (Ok they are 6 ply tires)

I think this is a recent development with the Cleveland wheels. Not sure they were always restricted. Sure would like to see the original STC paperwork with the "kit" from a while ago.

If it is a recent development and the original STC was not specific I'll bet that is the reason for the new development of a restriction. The legal heads probably looked at it and said since it didn't say you could use the bigger tires you couldn't and added the restriction.

That is one of the big changes from yesteryear to now. In yesteryear if it didn't say you couldn't you could, and now if it doesn't say you can, you can't.

[n2582d]

It would be interesting to see the FAA's position on this. F Atlee Dodge has this STC which is for the Cleveland 199-62 and 199-62A conversion kit for the C-170. I called Dodge about wheel size and was told the STC is only for the wheels and brakes; he didn't say what size tires could or could not be used. Yet it is interesting to see that 8.00-6 tires are listed for this conversion kit in the Cleveland Product Catalog:

[GAHorn]

[....I think this is a recent development with the Cleveland wheels. Not sure they were always restricted. Sure would like to see the original STC paperwork with the "kit" from a while ago....:

I spent some time posting a more elaborate message/reply to this and the internet connection dropped my work when I hit <ENTER>...
...my original msg pointed out that MY conversion, under the Cleveland STC SA13GL issued 1973 and performed in 1997 specified under note 5; 600 X 6 Tires. So I don't think this is anything new.

Gary, the Atlee-Dodge table you posted...is that an ADVERTISING table? or is that derived from the actual STC paperwork? (and in either case, does not appear applicable to the C-170.)

[Joe Moilanen]

OH MY GOD! My 800x6 tires are not legal!!!! As soon as I finish this beer I'm going to run down to the hangar and rip them off my airplane before anyone realizes that I have Cleveland Wheels!!! I feel like such an outlaw...... I'd confer with Blue Elder on this subject but I'm sure that he is probably deep into his own legalize as we speak.

Joe Legalanen

[cessna170bdriver]

OH MY GOD! My 800x6 tires are not legal!!!! As soon as I finish this beer I'm going to run down to the hangar and rip them off my airplane before anyone realizes that I have Cleveland Wheels!!! I feel like such an outlaw...... I'd confer with Blue Elder on this subject but I'm sure that he is probably deep into his own legalize as we speak.

Joe Legalanen

Kinda makes you want to switch to experimental, doesn't it?

[n2582d]

Gary, the Atlee-Dodge table you posted...is that an ADVERTISING table? or is that derived from the actual STC paperwork? (and in either case, does not appear applicable to the C-170.)

George, that table is straight from Cleveland's catalog on page 2-3. You are right in that the kit 199-62 / 199-62a is not authorized for the C-170 on Cleveland's STC but, as I pointed out, kit 199-62 / 199-62a is the kit to buy for the C-170 under F. Atlee Dodge's STC. The link I provided to that is from the FAA's website: STC SA02231AK

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

OH MY GOD! My 800x6 tires are not legal!!!! As soon as I finish this beer I'm going to run down to the hangar and rip them off my airplane before anyone realizes that I have Cleveland Wheels!!! I feel like such an outlaw...... I'd confer with Blue Elder on this subject but I'm sure that he is probably deep into his own legalize as we speak.

Joe Legalanen

Joe get a Sharpie Fine Tip and in your best handwriting put GOODYEAR on the outer rim of the wheel. You'll be all set and another 20 years till someone figures it out.

BTW- BL will be pissed he did think of this advice first.

[marathonrunner]

Umm there are several aircraft up here legally operating with field approvals with larger tires with those wheels and brakes. I am sure if my 337s did not have the 8.50's on them I can locate some that do.

[runerider]

Thanks for the reply bought the 199-62 and a sharpie.

[GAHorn]

Gary, the Atlee-Dodge table you posted...is that an ADVERTISING table? or is that derived from the actual STC paperwork? (and in either case, does not appear applicable to the C-170.)

George, that table is straight from Cleveland's catalog on page 2-3. You are right in that the kit 199-62 / 199-62a is not authorized for the C-170 on Cleveland's STC but, as I pointed out, kit 199-62 / 199-62a is the kit to buy for the C-170 under F. Atlee Dodge's STC. The link I provided to that is from the FAA's website: STC SA02231AK

If it can be confrimed that Atlee-Dodge has the larger tires approved on their STC...approved for the 170.... (and the table is not simply an advertising error)... they are the folks to obtain the conversion kit from.

Otherwise, they should be asked to correct either their table or their STC approval documentation. (Of course, FAA has a procedure for an operator to gain approval for larger tire sizes, so this is not a legal dead-end. For those who lie awake at night over tire sizes, it's probably a good idea to make certain that YOUR installation is legal in case your aircraft veers off the runway and plows thru a line of parked planes, so your inurance remains valid and your agent can lie awake instead while you sleep better. Humorous as Joe and bluElder's likely responses are...humor doesn't equate to legal, if that's of any concern to anyone. I'm only answering the original question as best I know how...I'm not the tire-nazi. )

It remains interesting that Cleveland does not approve larger tires on those wheel models, but I suspect it has to do with engineering data on braking energy and wheel loads. I doubt they care at all if someone installs larger tires...it's just that THEY didn't and don't have any interest in spending the money on documentation for less-popular tire-sizes. (I know. I know. ...those folks who want larger tires think their choices are "popular"....but from a commercial standpoint, it's the 600 X 6 tires that are most-selected by users.)

[bat443]

I have 8.00 tires with the double puck Cleveland brakes (kit 199-62) with the wheel and brake installation approved under the F.Atlee Dodge STC SA02231AK on my 1955 170B. The tires are approved on the type certificate, item 202(c), the note George refers to in my opinion indicates that any of the 3 available tire sizes may be installed on either the standard Goodyear or the crosswind Goodyear wheels. The aircraft is approved for these tires, the wheel/tire combination does not matter. The wheel and brake kit required by STC SA02331AK is one of 2 approved, both of which incorporate a brake disc deep enough for the brake caliper to clear the tire side wall with 8.00 tires (kit 199-62 is for 3 bolt wheels and kit 199-62A is for six bolt wheels (through bolts)). Just as information, the Cleveland single puck or double puck (kit 199-60) conversion for 6.00-6 tires would not have the required clearance. Others have been known to use a machined spacer between the wheel and brake disc on single puck brakes to increase the clearance and I believe Maule uses washers on the bolts of the single puck wheels to do the same thing. If the size of the tires is limited to 6.00-6 per the installation instructions of the STC for the single puck brakes, I believe that the use of the spacer or washers would require a field approval of the DEVIATION from the STC rather than the normal STC approval of the single puck brakes. Just the opinion of one A&P/IA, your A&P/IA's may vary.


note, interestingly enough the installation drawings for kit 199-62 lists only 8.00-6 tires as applicable tires, yet has a graph of required braking pressures vs static thrust or landing weight at a specified rate of deceleration for 6.00, 7.00 and 8.00-6 tires.

[GAHorn]

I have 8.00 tires with the double puck Cleveland brakes (kit 199-62) with the wheel and brake installation approved under the F.Atlee Dodge STC SA02231AK on my 1955 170B. The tires are approved on the type certificate, item 202(c), the note George refers to in my opinion indicates that any of the 3 available tire sizes may be installed on either the standard Goodyear or the crosswind Goodyear wheels. The aircraft is approved for these tires, the wheel/tire combination does not matter. ... Just the opinion of one A&P/IA, your A&P/IA's may vary.....

I don't disagree that this is a silly matter...but I do disagree that "the wheel/tire combination does not matter". If that were true...then why do you suppose Cleveland is so hard-headed about this matter? (And the note in the TCDS can be easily resolved when one realizes the approval of large tires is specifically approved ONLY on those previously approved Goodyear wheels.)

[blueldr]

What in h--- are all you guys trying to do? Can you even begin to immagine how many totally innocent Cessna drivers of almost all of the single engine series of airplanes are going to lose weight and sleep over finding out that their tire sizes are not authorized on their wheels? You really know how to hurt guys like me that install anything other than 600s.