Remove Before Flight flags

[KG]

The recent discussion about gust locks and their associated "remove before flight flags" reminded me of a similar issue.

How many of you turn off your fuel selector when parked? I never do because I'm afraid I might miss turning it back on but I've had a couple of mechanics turn it off when the plane is in their hangar. I can see why... sure wouldn't want to risk a fuel leak and come in one morning to a pool of gas on the floor (or worse).

I have considered using a bungee cord or something similar to connect from the fuel selector to the control wheel.... something along the lines of a "turn fuel on before flight" flag.

Do you routinely turn the fuel to off for parking? If so, do you do anything, other than a checklist, to remind yourself to turn it back on?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I would NEVER turn my fuel off without marking it.

My airplane is tied up on the side of a hill. The right wing lower than the left. So all the fuel from the left wing runs into the right wing fuel tank. This is a pain on many levels because we can never fill both tanks and leave the plane at our tie down. It's a cheap tie down and my partner loves it but many times I have to wonder.

Any to help stop the fuel flow we know turn the fuel selector to one side or another. This stops the fuel from migrating through the fuel valve and to the other tank but if we should not select both before takeoff we will probably survive. (BTW fuel still makes it's way to the other side through the vent line to a point.)

Anyway what I did was take a scrap piece of 20 gauge aviation wire that is long enough to reach from the fuel selector to the throttle knob plus a loop on each end. One loop goes over the fuel selector and the other the throttle knob. On the throttle side I have a small red remove before flight ribbon which came from a key chain on that end. Works great. You won't push the throttle in without removing the wire which is attached to the fuel valve.

[jrenwick]

On high-wing airplanes I always turn off the fuel as part of my shutdown sequence, and turning it on is part of my start-up flow. I started doing it after finding half my fuel had gone onto the hangar floor. Forgetting to turn the fuel on has never been more than an occasional embarrassment, because you really can't taxi very far with it off -- let alone get into a takeoff roll.

I just don't trust carburetor float valves. The fuel in my Swift stays on all the time, because it has to be pumped up to the carb.

[170C]

I have read several posts recommending that the fuel valve be shut off when the plane is placed in its hangar or where it is to be stored for the evening. Fortunately I have not experienced the loss of fuel as a result of not doing so. As a student I was cautioned to always check the selector position prior to start up (a check list item). I don't recall ever starting my engine with the fuel selector in the off position during the 23 years I have owned this plane, but I do remember starting my C-140A with a C-90 engine with the selector in the off position and it wouldn't run long enough to get to the runway, let alone do a run up and take off. I suspect the same would be true of the O300. I will have to give it a try to see how long it will run in the off position. I don't think it will do so long enough to get to the taxiway.

[bagarre]

For me, shutdown is always "Off, Off and Off" (Master, Mags and Fuel) After leaving my master on twice, I even stay it out loud while touching each piece.

I also shut it off when I refuel...mostly because I shutdown the airplane and do an "Off, Off and Off".

So far (knock on wood), I've never been in such a hurry to take off that I short cut the checklist.
My first instructor told me, "If you're in a hurry to take off, you might be in an even bigger hurry to land shortly after".

So I always follow CIGAR.

Controls (Free and Correct to include flaps at each position)
Instruments (Altimeter, DG, ect)
Gas and Gauges (Both tanks, enough fuel for the flight, oil pressure, temp and amps)
Attitude (Yours and the planes)
Radios and Run-up (transponder, departure frequency, mag check, carb heat)

I still say everything out loud so my passengers know I didn't miss anything.

[GAHorn]

If you have the selector OFF.......and start the engine on a C-170.....it will run for about 45 seconds
and die, if you forget to turn it on.
(PS, that is not anecdotal information.)

I always turn my fuel off when I leave the airplane unattended.

(PS, I've tested the time it takes for the engine to die sufficiently to assure every one they
do not need to lose sleep over this matter....you will NOT get to the runway, much less take off
with the fuel valve off.)

[KG]

If you have the selector OFF.......and start the engine on a C-170.....it will run for about 45 seconds
and die, if you forget to turn it on.
(PS, that is not anecdotal information.)

I always turn my fuel off when I leave the airplane unattended.

(PS, I've tested the time it takes for the engine to die sufficiently to assure every one they
do not need to lose sleep over this matter....you will NOT get to the runway, much less take off
with the fuel valve off.)

Well that is nice to know. I assumed it would run longer but never tested it. I think I will next time I go flying.

Thanks!

[Roesbery]

Many years ago, ( over 30 ) I took off with a lycoming engine with the fuel selector in the off position. It was a learning experience. And I know another person who did the same in a lycoming powered C-175. In both cases taxi was short and about 50 feet altitude was reached before the engine quit. He made a hard landing on remaining runway. I was a new pilot, and though my instructor was dead and gone, he was beside me at that time, and I put it down in a field where my instructor had told me too the day I soloed. We had done a lot of what if your engine quits here, do this, or here. do that. Was a little iffy clearing some telephone lines and rolling through a stream, but no damage to me or the plane. Was able to take off after stepping off a opening for length and holes, weeds about knee high, flew back to the airport and picked grass and tar weed out of the gear and removed green moss off the wings and struts. Then flew home. Learned to not let distractions disrupt the G U M P check list.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

(PS, I've tested the time it takes for the engine to die sufficiently to assure every one they
do not need to lose sleep over this matter....you will NOT get to the runway, much less take off
with the fuel valve off.)

So your not parked at the tie down right at the departure end of the runway are you?

George is probably right. You are likely not going to get off the ground with your fuel turned off. I didn't think I would take off with gust locks on either. I sure don''t want to try to depart with an engine sucking fumes.

My first 170 would make it half way to the departure end from it's parking spot, my Cub from it's first parking spot would make it a quarter way down the runway.

Check lists are good. Specially simple lists with essential stuff. But they are not the end all and plenty of pilots, even two cockpit pilots have read and responded to checklists yet the cockpit was not set as it should have been. I've been there, done that. We are still human.

[GAHorn]

OK...so just for discussions-sake....we should not use flight control locks because we might forget them...
We should not turn the fuel off lest we forget to turn it back on and be embarrassed...
We should not turn the magnetos off lest we run our batteries down trying to start.
We should not turn Avionics Master Switches off. Or retract flaps, or re-trim the airplane....or...

Firstly, the Lycoming powered airplane was not the standard 170 with the same fuel system (different carb, routing etc.), and the 175 is a TRIKE which places the gascolator higher and .... (by the way, if your gascolator seals are failed and leaking air the gascolator may allow it's fuel to exit and reach the carb, and if you are starting up AT the beginning of the takeoff roll....you might get down the runway a ways...IF you fail to do a RUN UP and pre-takeoff checks!)

..come to think about it perhaps we shouldn't be operating these dangerous machines at all....!


...but to be SURE... We should shut down properly, AND USE the relevant checklist for operating.

I'm fairly certain most folks know we should turn off all switches in proper order, turn off the fuel, lock the controls (if parked outside or subject to being towed outside and left there), etc etc.

To reiterate for those who haven't heard of such things, ... I once left my Aeronca tied down with the fuel valve on and returned to find firetrucks and a disgruntled fellow-aviator tied down next to me beacause my fuel leaked out into my airplane's belly, onto the ground and ran under HIS airplane. All it would take is a source of ignition (not to mention that due to good-fortune all I lost was my pride and valuable fuel.)
If you DON'T shut it off at least occasionally...how do you know your valve can stop an engine fire? Like anything mechanical, if you don't USE IT... it may not work when you need it. What ELSE are you not testing and properly securing on your airplane?

(where's that emoticon for stepping back down off a soap-box..?)

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Come on George. No one said "don't ever" do something. We are discussing the extra precautions we take if or when we do certian things. If check lists were the end all safety answer there wouldn't be such a thing as a Remove Before Flight flag.

BTW my company has a check list to insure we have all the check lists required in the aircraft before we fly. We are over check listed.

[c170b53]

I'm surprised that some do not shut-off their fuel, as mentioned you don't get far if you forget to turn it back on. I turn it to off whenever I fuel and whenever I'll be away from the plane. I don't see any downside to my MO. Checklist checklists are required whenever the pilot is considered to be part pilot/part information manager, thankfully the 170 doesn't need a EFB, electronic checklists and FMC's to get off the ground.
It's sometimes interesting when a pilot becomes removed from his traditional environment by advanced systems such as electronic checklists where he may have problems understanding the intent due to the English language.
In other words, I'm sure everyone understands it's a delicate balance determining when sufficient checks and balances have been put into place but it's a bit harder determining when too much info might lead to a loss of awareness.

[GAHorn]

Come on George. No one said "don't ever" do something. We are discussing the extra precautions we take if or when we do certian things. If check lists were the end all safety answer there wouldn't be such a thing as a Remove Before Flight flag.

BTW my company has a check list to insure we have all the check lists required in the aircraft before we fly. We are over check listed.

I didn't write"don't ever".
I also did not say a checklist must be a long written piece of paper.
It can be memorized...it can be a"flow"....but one should be used (and I'm clearly guilty
myself or I wouldn't have ever discovered out won't run with the fuel off!) LOL

I urge folks to reconsider that turning fuel off when leaving the airplane unattended
is a good a procedure as turning off the avionics, tieing down, and LOCKING the airplane...
...and for equally-good or even better reasons. (Also, a fuel-thief wouldn't be able to simply open the drain-cock on the gascolator and let it drain into his gas-can...he'd have to stand under each wing seperately with his thumb on the drain with fuel running down his arm, and an airplane thief may not get far unless he can figure out how to turn the fuel on, restart...and then taxi a taildragger!)

[blueldr]

Maybe George Horn screws around longer after engine start than I used to. Early on, when I first got my C-170B, I turned the fuel off after shut down. Then one day I cranked up, not far from the run up pad , and lined up to go, I jabbed "Clydes Pride" in the butt and made it about 100 feet down the runway when it got real quiet. From then on, I only turmed the fuel off when parked leaning one way or the other or for some other reason than just shutting things down.

[DaveF]

Ever notice how little fuel flows from the gascolator when the fuel selector is off?