Plastic parts, Airbus V Boeing split- cleaning out my 170 parts

[Kyle]

George - not yet, it's getting really entertaining for the rest of us !

Kyle T.

[N2625U]

Just opened all doors to let 'it' flow outside...

[GAHorn]

...My cousin, who is a pipe fitter by profession, would always tell me " it's not the tool, it's the operator." The statement equally applies to Pilots. One must learn the aircraft to get the most from it. .... It's not the tool, it's the operator.

Soooo.... does that mean Boeing pilots understand rudder and stall-avoidance/recovery better than Airbus pilots?

That's a shame, because the Airbus guys are much easier to talk out of a free drink. Those Boeing guys are too cheap.

On a more serious note... that logic implies that it's almost ALWAYS pilot-error.... And I've never been happy with the public knee-jerk reaction in that regard. There aren't too many pilots who set out to kill themselves in airplanes...they spend a lot of energy/effort to avoid that very thing, and pilot groups have fought that image for many, long decades.

Historically there is a REASON pilots make errors: Many decades of human-engineering has improved airplanes by standardizing control knobs, instrument panel layout, SOPs, etc. Those have greatly reduced accident rates because they took into consideration human frailties and eliminated operational errors by re-design.
Not all new designs have remembered the mistakes of the past. Putting both pilots in the same cockpit eliminated a lot of accidents caused by one pilot's ignorance of the other's inputs.
Good design reduces those inherent problems, and that is what influences me in this particular matter. I don't like the design. If an Airbus driver's sidestick isn't physically connected to the other guys sidestick, he cannot feel the countermanded control inputs of that other crewmember, can he? Boeing has standard yokes that are still tied together, ...one pilot can tell if the other is pushing the stick forward without actually having to see the other's movement.
Opposite sidesticks are not in the normal scan and without control feedback from the other pilot's actions, it can be difficult to diagnose stall/upset recovery. Just one of many items I dislike about the design.

[crwrpmr]

I stayed away from commenting on this thread for weeks but it is thought provoking and I feel the readers are enjoying the discussion.
With the data that is downloaded from modern airliners it is very difficult to blame the Pilot without just cause. I feel safer now than before because of this evidence of data. The data that was retrieved from the Air France A330 accident initially was download during the flight. The aircraft delivered these days download even more. But the black box is still required to complete the picture, for example what was being said. To their credit they recovered the black box.
At no time should two pilots be flying the aircraft. Once the Captain decides to intervene he takes control stating "I have control". On the Airbus you also press the priority button on the top of the joy stick this will disconnect the other stick from the flight control computers. Lights and aural messages signify the selection. Should the Captain become incapacitated, the F/O would take priority on his side. When the wheel arrangement is employed an incapacitated Pilot that slumped forward against the wheel would be difficult for the flying Pilot to work against. Pilots are working to an older age now and soon any age forced retirement will be challenged in the courts. In my company we have had incapacitated Pilots fouling the controls and have had control jams. The Tristar had a lever on the center counsel to separate the controls in the event of a jam. With the side stick arrangement those two events are catered for.
The Airbus rudders pedals are interconnected, as in the other aircraft.
The f16 has a side stick, the f15, 18, 22 have a center stick. What did the engineers at G D believe that Boeing, MAC D and Northrup didn't. Can a f16 expert tell me if the two sticks were connected in the two seater?
My comment "it's not the tool, it's the operator" is not a slander of my fellow pilot. It is an observation that applies to every profession. We have doctors, lawyers, truck drivers etc who excell in their profession and are on the right side of the bell curve ( Bob Hoover, Chuck Yeager for pilots ) most of us are in the middle and on the left side of the curve are the people who meet the minimum standard. People from all three sides of the curve make up the operator. If you were to have a heart transplant would you like to have the doctor who is recognized as the best or the one who failed his last three check rides before passing the latest one.
Then there are the stressors of the day that affect performance. Fatigue, illness, family, work related and money problems have a negative effect.
PS I do not work for Airbus but I do enjoy flying them but not as much as I enjoy the 170B!

[cowboy]

I too, have kept my silence, but I have "a little" to say. I have a little time in Boeing and Airbus (16,000+ in Boeing 737 series and 5,000+ A319/A320/A321) so I think that I can speak with a little more authority as to the differences. I have NO problem nor fear of riding on either manufacturer's aircraft. Both are well made and safe. My REAL issue is I WILL NOT ride on any airliner not flown by a US/Canadian/British or western style trained crew.

The problem is not the aircraft but the training and experience. Most western trained crew members come to the airlines with some level of flight time and experience. Most foreign crew members either came from their military or more and more through ab inito training. The airline which I work for trains well above the level which Airbus feels is adequate. We go into much more detail of systems and situations at the request of the crews. When I trained on the 737 we were expected to verbally build most of the major systems during the oral and deal with cascading failures in the simulators, much in the Boeing fashion. While our training on the A320 wasn't quite as detailed as on the 737, Airbus feels that we go too far in our training as their philosophy is "let the airplane take care of itself" (Airbus V1 cut procedure is rotate, establish a climb, trim the rudder towards the live engine and autopilot ON [about 100 feet AGL], then checklist). Also, while our airline has no problem with the pilots "hand flying", even approaches, Airbus is a big proponent of autopilot on as much as possible so that "the airplane can protect itself". With the Airbus philosophy of minimal stick time, minimal systems knowledge and add limited or no prior experience, foreign carrier scare the daylights out of me.

Ironically, about 3 weeks before AF447 disappeared I was in training. If we can get through the required training spots with time left over the check airman can throw out new situations. I was given a loss of all three ADRs at 34,000 which, just like AF447, caused the aircraft to drop to Alternate Law, autopilots and autothrust failed and I had no airspeed indications. I set the power to normal cruise power, pitched to about 4 degrees and let the plane settle to about 32,500 as I played a little with pitch and power. Really a non-event. During the debrief the check airman explained that there had been 5 cases on the A330 of the pitot tubes freezing over and the situation which he gave us had occurred. All 5 crews (3 US and 2 British) had responded exactly the same way and had flown the aircraft home safely. Training and experience.

The one area where I don't trust the A320 is the Vertical Nav. The software is terrible, input a crossing restriction and the 'bus might hit it right on, or might cross the fix 400 feet high and 20 kts fast and be perfectly fine with that. You have to watch the Vertical Nav like a hawk or you will be filling out ASAP/NASA reports due to missed restrictions. But the airframe, I do trust. As to which I prefer; for fun factor, control harmony and landing in gusty crosswinds - the Boeing 737 hands down. For flightdeck ergonomics, instrumentation display - the A320 family. But I have the most fun in my C170A!!

[busav8or]

And on top of it the Airbus calls you a "Retard" when you land!

image.jpg

[cowboy]

On the 737 just the F/O called me a "Retard", now I hear it in stereo!