Autogas - use and personal experience

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher

User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 21063
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Post by GAHorn »

According to yesterday's NPR interview of Robt. F. Kennedy, Jr. (an environmental lawyer) ...if the U.S. would quit giving carmakers a free ride, reverse itself, and legislate a 7.5 m.p.g. increase in fuel-efficiency,...then the U.S. would be free of ALL imported oil. Think of how that would affect the economy (stop the bleeding from trade deficits) and the political picture (deny the OPEC states political power over the U.S.).
Such a change would also affect the current push by oil companies (presently experiencing record-high windfalls) to drill in sensitive areas.

But this subject is getting far too political for a forum such as TIC170A. If we let politics gain a foothold here at this forum we stand to alienate friendships and lose focus on our beloved Cessna 170's.

As for the topic at hand, and the recently posted EAA website reprint of articles about autogas:

My personal bias is towards exclusive use of aviation fuels for airplanes (big surprise, huh?) :lol: So with that in mind, allow me to point to some glaring (?) inconsistencies in the article.

EAA reprint of LPM article: The promised benefits from using
autogas are increased economy in terms
of the price of the fuel and a reduction
of wear of certain engine and airframe
parts such as spark plugs and exhaust
system components.

Lead is also used to provide lubrication
of upper cylinder components such as
valves, pistons, cylinder walls and
valve guides.


Observation: If autogas/mogas is unleaded, yet lead is used to provide necessary lubrication, ...then how is the use of mogas going to provide a "reduction of wear" of engine components, etc.? Another way valve guides get lead is from contaminated engine oil. The result of that is stuck valves. The same thing holds for stuck piston rings. Lead deposits from avgas and lead in contaminated engine oil seizes rings in their piston lands. I don't understand why EAA persists in claiming that lead is good for valves, valve guides and rings. Adding avgas to mogas only contributes the one bad component of avgas to complete the list of harmful fuel components run through your engine.
The economic returns from lower mogas price is the real attraction to this fuel in the lower 48. Availabilty is an added attraction in remote regions such as AK. But the EAA statement is contradicted with regards to their "reduced wear" comments because the mogas has no lead "to provide lubrication"....if you can believe that statement.
For instance, the EAA reprint's later statement: "... upper
cylinder wear problems were the result
of the use of unleaded autogas..."
is at least in part an admission by them that mogas caused increased wear (at least in older engines.) I suspect the real reason was not lack of lead, but instead use of non-compatible mogas additives.

There is a common seque made by owners with regard to the changes made in aircraft engines in the late '70's/early 80's. It is commonly believed that changes were made in valve/valve seat design in order to facilitate the useage of unleaded mogas and therefore use of that fuel requires lead to be added back in to cushion the valve seat. (This is a common sales-pitch in the automotive additives market for products such as "No-Lead" and "104+ Octane Booster" sold at parts stores and WalMart, etc...none of which contains lead, by the way. It is mostly just alcohol..an illegal additive for mogas STC's.) It is furthered by the recommendation by Mogas STC holders in suggestions to mix avgas with mogas useage.
The real changes in subsequent engine-part design was a change in valve-seat angle and valve alloys. The seat angle change was NOT to facilitate mogas use...It was done to facilitate the scavenging of the increased amount of lead in 100LL which had begun to replace 80/87 almost universally around the world. (Yet another bit of evidence, in my opinion, that lead is not good for valve and seats, for lubrication, cushion or any other purpose, but is actually a problem. In my opinion, based on years of experience first as an automotive-engine mechanic for Toyota, and later as an aircraft engine mechanic for S & S, any contaminants between a valve and it's seat will cause leakage, excessive wear, and lead to burning of that valve seal, eventually warping the valve and leading to gas-erosion and valve failure. Carbon, lead, or any other foreign object there will damage the valve/valve seat. If EAA's claim that lead is good for valve lubrication, then why would engine mfr's redesign their valves in order to get rid of/scavenge lead? Keep in mind that the new valve designs are referred to as "100 Octane" valves.)
Remember, the avgas producers AND the engine mfr's were then and are still now, opposed to mogas use,...so why would they re-design an engine for that fuel? Answer: They didn't. They did it only to lessen the bad effects of lead. There is NO benefit to lead in fuels for purposes of lubricating "upper cylinder components such as
valves, pistons, cylinder walls and
valve guides."
Next point: EAA reprint states, ".... Typically refinery supplies a large
amount “generic,” single-grade,
unleaded autogas to a pipeline
system with fuel shipped to several
storage facilities in major metropolitan
areas throughout the US.
When the fuel reaches the
storage facilities it is transferred to
tank trucks and at this time various
additives, dyes, detergents, and other
chemicals are added to the fuel
give
the fuel its branded identity a grade.
No specific tracking or tracing of the
autogas is done to determine what
was added to the fuel.


I suggest that one consider how that statement jives with their other statement which they are seemingly adamant about.
EAA reprint: "Additives not certified for aircraft use should
not be added to fuels....It cannot be
stressed enough to use only additives
proven and tested for use in aircraft."


The point is that the many paragraphs devoted by them to the bad effects of undetermined additives and base stocks of mogas indicate that mogas is NOT likely to give an airplane owner the economic savings in maintenance over the long term. In other words, a penny saved now will cost plenty of dollars later on. I realize that there are many owners who anecdotally share their stories of many hours of trouble-free use of mogas. I personally know a great many who have used mogas "successfully". But the standard they measure their success by is avgas which is never a problem (especially when used with TCP), and when they have an engine or fuel system failure they are reluctant to blame the fuel that they have consciously made a choice to use.

With the uncertain quality of mogas, and with it's known traits of corrosion-causing components, and with the admitted dangers of vapor-lock problems, and the acknowleged increased danger of carburetor icing when using mogas, topped by the manufacturer's opposition to it's use and the strong warnings from even the refiners of the fuel...I can't justify it's use in my personal airplane.

The only problem I find with 100LL is excessive lead which can lead to sticking valves and short-lived spark plugs, ...both easily solved by the addition of TCP to my avgas.

Why would EAA reprint an article by LPM which promotes mogas use? Simple: They want to sell their STC's.

I can't help but wonder why, after all the comments that point to claims that "increased liabiltiy" is a cause of high av-fuel prices,...no one seems to notice that mogas STC holders don't seem to suffer from the same fears of lawsuit. Why?
I believe it's because the mogas user, with or without an STC has shouldered the blame should he pump faulty fuel into his tanks. Read the STC. It requires the "pumpee" to ascertain that the fuel meets ASTM standards, is clean, contains no "unapproved additives", etc. It's the "pumpee" that has to guarantee his fuel when he uses mogas, ...not the retailer or refiner. (Remember, they don't claim it's suitable for aircraft use!) So, it's the owner who assumes the liability/responsibility not the STC issuer.
With that in mind, it's no wonder that many mogas proponents don't bother to send EAA any money for the STC, expecially since the previous EAA STC was mistakenly allowed out into the public domain where anyone with a photocopier can get one for free. The only difference is the ASTM standard mentioned, but even that is a non-problem since the superceded ASTM (now also obsolete with the addition of ethanol) is referenced in the new one. :roll:
If you decide to use mogas in your airplane, my only suggestion is that you determine it has no alcohol in it, that it's fresh, that you deliver it into your tanks clean, that you use it soon, and that you keep a sharp lookout for deterioration of fuel system components.
(And don't forget to drain your fuel selector and carb bowl drains frequently. I will not expect your expensive and difficult-to-repair fuel selector valve and carburetor to last long..... but that's another thread.)
Last edited by GAHorn on Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
N1478D
Posts: 1045
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:32 pm

Post by N1478D »

Politics out of the way - B Clinton maybe is a smart idiot!

The website was posted as "interesting reading" which it is.

Working on getting George to not hold back, and to go ahead and give his opinion.

The tale of false economy of using mogas is preached by very experienced aviation folks. At some point though, X dollars savings per gal, it might become true economics. Let's say prices become where you could save $5 a gallon by using mogas?
Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 21063
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Post by GAHorn »

Yeah, Joe! Let's stay off hotly-debated items like politics and stay on the more agreeable subjects like avgas-vs-mogas! :lol: (I'll never understand why the choice of gas or oil becomes a personal-attack issue for some. Maybe it's because it's a personal-choice thing.)
Please note (those who think I'm vehemently against mogas,)...that the majority of my comments are devoted to the condemnation of avgas and it's nasty lead! I don't like it's price either.
I darn sure wouldn't pay the outrageous price for it just so I could dump the lead into my mogas. (Now, THAT's a money-saving idea. Buy a bunch of gas cans, drive to the local gas station to fill up on mogas and return to the airplane to pour it all over the wing and myself (sounds inflammatory already!) then, because I've saved so much money (and spent an extra hour of time), I'll pay an outrageous price for some avgas so I can dose my engine up with some lead. Of course, I guess it'd be better to spend still more on some TCP so the lead would get on out the exhaust rather than "lubricate" my valves. Lessee now,...30 gals at 1.50 (mogas) plus 10 gals at 2.50 (avgas) plus 1.50 for 4 ounces of TCP comes to.....$71.50 for a tank of gas. Yep, sounds like an inexpensive hobby to me! :evil:
I wonder what it'd cost to buy a tankerfull of avgas before they put the lead in it? (And I wonder what the octane would be?) Remember when you could pull up to the gas station and dial-in the octane you wanted? (The only difference was the amount of lead injected.) I remember Gulf stations and Conoco stations would let you do that. (And I also recall they never claimed the higher lead-content product as having any special extra-lubrication properties, either. :roll: ) Hmmmn.

Ok, Horn. Enough. (Now, where'd I put that Nomex suit?)
User avatar
N1478D
Posts: 1045
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:32 pm

Post by N1478D »

:lol: George, after you put 30 gals mogas, 10 gals avgas in that old slow B of yours, don't believe you would have room for 4 ounces of TCP! :lol:

:lol: Maybe you need to either get the lead out, or, :lol: put some lead in your pencil!

Understand now why you are not a promoter of LPM, an author wrote lead and valves in the same article! It's amazing how many different experts have different expert opinions on this topic. It makes it tough to be confident in a choice. Always enjoy reading your opinions and place high value on them. This is a tough subject with a somewhat moving target in that changes are going on frequently enough to make it more difficult.
Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 21063
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Post by GAHorn »

I know what you mean, Joe. Maybe this will help:
Since the early 80's there has been no lead in automotive fuels in the U.S. (It actually began in '74, but there was some leaded fuels available until early 80's.)
Now,....how many automobiles have you owned purchased since the early '80's that you have had, or you have even heard of having a valve problem? (And consider also that many modern engines actually have twice as many valves per cylinder.) Compare that to the decades previous to the 80's wherein automobiles were either already junked or considered to have been worn out by 75K-100K miles, and also how commonly "valve-jobs" were performed by repair shops.
I recall the 40's, 50's and 60's automobiles that virtually all had valve problems before 75K, most of those cars never made it to 100K without serious, heavy engine repairs. All the fuels back then had liberal doses of lead.
Nowdays, if a car doesn't make it to 200K and beyond it's because it's been abused. I believe the major reason is unleaded gas. (Some will claim it's better oils but I don't agree. The old oils were fine, they just couldn't deal with all the abrasive lead contamination any more than modern oils would if they had to.) My 92 Jeep Cherokee just turned 223K* original miles while pulling a trailer with my son-in-law's dead 72 Mustang on it over a hundred miles in the Texas heat to get the Mustang's engine rebuilt. Except for emission controls and fuel injection, the cast iron, straight-six Jeep engine is virtually identical to the early engines. Except all it's ever had is unleaded gas.
It's the strongest argument in favor of mogas that I've heard. (Oh, yeah, TCP is nothing new. It was a huge marketing item in the 50s/60's and was even mentioned in popular songs of the period.---(music) "Oh you can't get to Heaven....In a Mercury.....'Cause the good old Lord....Don't sell TCP! and so on and on.)
Get the lead out! Use TCP if you use avgas. (P.S. Avgas sells at numerous locations in TX for around $1.80).

*(That Jeep is still running strong 4 years later with 322,000+ miles.)
Last edited by GAHorn on Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
rudymantel
Posts: 451
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:03 pm

Post by rudymantel »

The narrowly defeated Energy Bill mandated that a significant percentage of autogas contain Ethanol. This would preclude such fuel for airplane use. This bill will raise its ugly head again.
Here in Florida we don't have Ethanol (we don't grow much corn) but I fear if this additive is mandated I'll be paying $3 per gallon for avgas instead of $ 1.47 for autogas.
But it will surely help that paragon of business ethics who helped write this bill, ADM "Supermarket to the World".
I wrote EAA and they have essentially surrendered on this issue and won't fight this legislation. (I believe they do grow corn in Wisconsin).
EAA said that autogas for airplanes would be exempted- but I think that such fuel would probably cost more than avgas !
Below is EAA's message in response to my concerns.
Rudy

Rudy:
Tom asked me to follow up on your email. I am sorry for the delay in my response but I wanted to go back and check the latest status of the issue before I responded.
As far as I and the congressional staff I have consulted can tell the last version of the energy bill does not mandate auto gasoline to contain ethanol. What it does mandate is that the suppliers of automotive gasoline use a set amount of ethanol each year. This may seem like a small difference but it is very important. Currently certain Counties, Parishes and States are required to have ethanol in ALL the gasoline they sell. What the most recent version of the bill says is that ethanol, or any other oxygenate, is no longer required to be added to ALL fuel in a given area. For states like California this is important as it allows gasoline suppliers there to provide gasoline without ethanol added. Currently ALL gasoline in California must have ethanol in it as it is the only allowable oxygenate since MTBE and the other ethers were outlawed in California.
The required amount of ethanol used in the US is proposed to increase under the last proposed bill and this is not favorable for aircraft use but the compromise proposed is a workable one.
Also you should know that the EPA and all states allow the delivery of autogas without ethanol to any airport fuel tank as long as it is for aviation use. Ethanol is added as the gasoline is placed into the delivery tank so not adding it is a simple process since the base gasoline's at all the distributors does not contain ethanol.
Be assured EAA will continue to work with our congressional contacts to prevent actions that prevent aircraft owners form using automotive gasoline in their aircraft.
Earl

PS: I use autogas in my own aircraft.

Earl Lawrence
EAA
V.P. Industry & Regulatory Affairs
(920) 426 6522
elawrence@eaa.org
AR Dave
Posts: 1070
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:06 pm

Post by AR Dave »

George your statement about not getting into politics is right, of course you wrote a paragraph stating your political opinion first! :lol:
So I'm taking one rebuttal, to which you can't reply because I'm saying after I say it that we can't talk about it.

A report yesterday stated that The University Of Texas just " LOST $12 MILLLION " by missing that Bowl Game, compliments of the BSC. That ought to ground one of those party planes! :wink:
Last edited by AR Dave on Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
N1478D
Posts: 1045
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:32 pm

Post by N1478D »

:lol: I won't say this after I say it! Dave, didn't AR beat TX this year? :lol:
Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 21063
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Post by GAHorn »

AR Dave wrote:George your statement about not getting into politics is right, of course you wrote a paragraph stating your political opinion first! :lol:
So I'm taking one rebuttal, to which you can't reply because I'm saying after I say it that we can't talk about it.

A report yesterday stated that The University Of Texas just " LOST $12 MILLLION " by missing that Bowl Game, compliments of the BCS. That ought to ground one of those party planes! :wink:
Yeah, I should be barred from returning postage-paid political junk-mail after I did that. (I always add a little extra weight to the pre-paid envelopes to increase their postage bill when I return unsolicited junk mail.) :twisted:
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
170C
Posts: 3182
Joined: Tue May 06, 2003 11:59 am

MOGAS????

Post by 170C »

George--your threads, as usual, are thought provoking, interesting and bring a smile to my face(I would put a smiley face here if this X#%&@ computer would let me, but it only puts the character on the keyboard!). However I too remember my Dad having to have "valve jobs" done on some of our vehicles and also many friends, neighbors, etc. Never connected the lack of valve problems now days with the lack of lead in unleaded fuel??? Remember when another frequent maintainence chore was putting in new points & condensers or leaving the key on and burning the points. Also the plugs in the old days would really look crudy, but now no points or condenser's to fool with and plugs go 100,000 + miles. Some things do get better as time goes on. My biggest question though is do you REALLY remember those auto's in the 40's? I thought I was older than you George, but maybe I misjudged your youthfullness!!!!! If I were an airline pilot, my career would be ending next month! Anyway, keep up the good work & hope you see you and your lovely wife this weekend.
OLE POKEY
170C
Director:
2012-2018
User avatar
wa4jr
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2002 2:44 am

Post by wa4jr »

I like F44 also! I stopped by there on the way back from SAT in April becuase airnav.com listed the $1.81/gal 100LL! Great service from Dyson in his military surplus fueler. Neat rig! Seeing 100LL going for $1.81/gal just goes to show us how much of a markup the fuel gets once it makes it to the airport from the tanker. I make it a point to plan trips on airnav.com so I can stop by and give my business to the honest folks that don't skewer aircraft owners with unjustifiable and unreasonable high prices. If we all stayed away from the $3/gal bandits, maybe they would get the message :)
John, 2734C in Summit Point, WV
User avatar
N3243A
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2002 12:51 am

Post by N3243A »

More mogas-avgas discussion in a new article on Avweb. It even had a positive take on mogas use, imagine that.......

http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/187232-1.html
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 21063
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Post by GAHorn »

N3243A wrote:More mogas-avgas discussion in a new article on Avweb. It even had a positive take on mogas use, imagine that.......

http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/187232-1.html
This is not a disparaging attack on Bruce Christie's helpful link to John Ruley's article on mogas use.

It IS a critical review of the article.

John Ruley performs a very nice magic act with this article.
First, he establishes in the mind of the reader that a high degree of scientific expertise is held by the author... (himself)... with a short discussion of readily available "chemical analysis" of gasoline generally. (Notice it is not an actual analysis of mogas as it's found today in gas pumps.) This leads a reader to believe Mr. Ruley actually knows what he is talking, has first-hand knowlege, and is speaking with some valid authority. (In fact, it's obsolete info about the origins of gasoline and has little to do with modern mogas application to aircraft.)

Next, he talks about how he once bought a plane he planned to use mogas in, but never actually used the stuff because he realized for several reasons it was inconvenient, not economical, and at best, a questionable practice.
Then, he tells how although he decided against mogas in his own airplane, he never used it, ...and then bought a different plane that was prohibited from using it... BUT..... he recommends it for others to use in their airplanes anyway because he has a couple of friends who anecdotally say they like it! 8O

To the only credit worthy of mention in the article, he states: "While unleaded autogas provides sufficient octane to substitute for 80/87 avgas in low-compression engines, there are other differences that can cause problems when using autogas in some engine installations. The two most significant are lower vapor pressure -- which can lead to vapor lock -- and incompatibility between some of the additives in autogas and some components (particularly seals) in some aircraft fuel systems."

I guess he feels that relieves him of his responsibility for recommending for others something he's not willing to do himself. It is not a knowlegable, first-hand authoritative article about the wonders of using mogas. Mr. Ruley doesn't know first-hand about using mogas. He only thinks he does.

It's only my (admittedly very-strong) opinion, but I thought such a well-polished and highly promoted article deserved a more realistic and down-to-earth summary. :?
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
Post Reply