In the last three weeks I spoke with many A&P with IA. Each of this gave me other informations. Now I will ask you: What ist the best and cheapest 145 hp engine for a C170 B?"
I think now, that the best way is, using a O-300-D, because the camshaft problems with the C145-2. And I think too, that the availableness with the O-300-D is the best and therfore the price will be the best for a used engine with a few open hours in good condition.
What do you think about the C145 and the O-300 series.
Now I am going on a business trip. I can answer earliest on friday.
Wolfgang, someone is giving you misleading information. The C-145 and the O-300 is the same engine, only a different name. The improvements to the engine that resulted in the O-300 have now been incorporated in the C-145 during re-build.
There are no problems with a C-145 cam that is unique, because it is the same cam in the O-300. (There was a very early difference in cast-iron cams versus steel tappet/followers but that difference no longer exists....all engines are now the same in that regard.)
The "-D" engine merely designates a minor change to the accessory-case which allows installation of a vacuum pump onto the engine. In order to accomodate that change, the starter was also altered to an "angle-drive" starter using a different starter clutch and a "Key-start" relay. There is no advantage of this engine over earlier engines other than the vacuum pump capability. If your airplane has a venturi driven vacuum system, you have no need for a (failure-prone) vacuum pump, unless you wish to convert your system.
Additionally, the -D engine uses a different crankshaft that will prevent your use of the original propeller. The -C and -D engines have a 6-bolt prop flange instead of the original 8-bolt flange, and will require a different propeller, and will require additional airworthiness approvals because those engines and propellers were not originally approved for this airplane.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention. An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Wolfgang, If you purchase the Continental Aircraft Engine Overhaul Manual" Form X30013 and read section 2, page 6, Paragraph e, : "Early production C-145 engines had the same type of lifters and cast iron camshafts of special design. Current production C-145 engines have forged steel camshafts and valve lifters whose bodies are single piece iron castings. The forged steel camshafts are copper plated, between lobes and journals, on the unfinished surfaces, and the entire surface is Parko-Lubrite coated for protection until the shafts are installed."
Also, further in the same paragraph: "It is recommended that forged steel camshafts and cast irion lifter bodies be installed in all C-145 engines - not already so equipped - at the next major overhaul."
Nitride (hardened) camshafts are universally utilised these days.
Wolfgang, the point is that virtually ALL C145/O300 engines when overhauled are done so to later specifications. As I explained earlier, the O-300 engine is merely a NAME CHANGE to the C-145 engine (to better signify the engine type and size, i.e., "O" = Opposed cylinder arrangement and "-300 " = approximately 300 cubic inches displacement. The earlier engine designation was "C" = Continental and "145" = maximum rated horsepower. Since different aircraft installations might use the same engine, but at different horsepower ratings, Continental decided to begin a new method of naming engines. Otherwise, the C-145 and the O-300-A engine are identical. (Yes, the first C-145 did not have a dampened crankshaft, but later engines did and the later crankshafts are applicable to the earlier engines and may be installed. Most non-dampened crankshafts have been replaced with dampened crankshafts by this time. You must investigate each engine's logbooks to determine it's status.) The C-145-2H is equivalent to a O-300-B. The O-300-C and the -D engines both use the 6-bolt crankshaft (and therefore the different prop) and the -D further is modified for the vacuum pump and angle-drive ("key-start") starter. Caution: Neither of these last two engines (or their propellers) were originally approved for the 170 and require additional approval. The Lycoming 0-360 engine was also used in the later 172.....but that does not make it legal to install it in a 170, no matter that it is "more available"! The comment about the venturi (carburetor venturi) is not valid. For all practical purposes, Both engines use the same carb and venturi. (And an AD note has become applicable to the earlier venturi which effectively/predominantly removed it from service in all engines.) Lastly, all engines that have a "D" in the SERIAL NUMBER...already have been equipped with the "vibration reducing" (dampened) crankshaft, and as I already stated the earlier engines most likely have had their crankshafts replaced with the dampened crank by this time. But the engine's name will not designate this status.....the logbook should. Confirm this matter on an individual engine basis....NOT by the engine's name.
Engines have developed improvements over the years and when engines are overhauled they should incorporate the improvements that have been developed since last overhaul. Each engine logbook should be examined carefully before purchase in order to determine it's status. But the engine's NAME....in and by itself....is NOT a guarantee of the engine's modification status, and a later engine designation (such as O-300-A) does not guarantee that older, obsolete parts have not been installed into it.
Also, keep in mind the Type Certificate of the aircraft only approved specific engine models for installation. The Cessna 170 only approved Continental C-145-2 or -2H or O-300-A engines. Other engines cannot be used simply because they physically fit or are similar.
Wolfgang, here are the answers to your questions some of which George already answered.
Question #1:The C-145 and the 0-300 use the exact same camshaft.
#2 The TBO for the C-145 and the 0-300 is the same at 1800
#3 Yes the 0-300-D may be more available but you will probably need some sort of approval to use it because the 170B never came with or was certified to have a 0-300-D
#4 Not sure what you are talking about but the carberation is the same for each model. There may be different carb model numbers but they work the same.
#5 I think you are are confusing the cam shaft with the crank shaft. Yes all 0-300-D have a dampend crank shaft as do later C-145 engines. Early C-145 cranks where not dampened. Besides the fact that some accessories like a 35 Amp generator can't be used unless you have a dampened crank, I doubt you would now the difference.
All of this information is available in the parts and rebuild manuals available from several sources. the manuals are the same for a C-145 and the 0-300.
Do a search here for 0-300 differences which George has posted which came right from the front of the either the overhaul or parts manual I forget which.
Hope this clears this up.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Thank you for your postings. I worked two weeks hard and than I visited my parents. Now I am at home again and I can answer.
Now I understand that the engines C-145, O-300A and O-300B are the same. But now I have another problem with a O-300A.
My A&P/IA have a old O-300 for small money. This old engine have a small crack in the engine - block. It should be possible to welding this small crack. But in Germany nobody can do licenced welding. Do you now anybody how can welding a small crack in a engine with papers? Can you give me the address of a engine - overhauler how can to licenced welding on a O-300A?
My favorite engine overhauler is Western Skyways ( http://www.westernskyways.com/ ) who can examine your case and have it welded and certified.
If you wish to have crankcase welding repairs only, performed directly for you rather than through an overhauler, you should contact Ajax Aviation, 319 Wolf Road, San Antonio, Texas 78216
Their phone number is: 210-342-9494 or 800-531-7212
Technician name is: Randy Selchert
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention. An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Wolfgang,
Welcome to the 170 Forum. I visited your WEB site and found the pictures interesting even though I understand very little German(Ein Bier ). In one of the pictures of your 170 the motor mount appears to be for a different engine than the Cont. O-300(C-145); is it possible that your airplane was converted to a different type of engine before you bought it? Your project seems to be at about the same place mine was in November, as you can see a picture in the picture below.
Happy New Year
John
Wolfgang, Bruce,
Sorry it must be time for new glasses. When I first looked at the picture the front engine mount appeared round like a Lord type mount. When I blew up the picture I got a much clearer view and can see that the front mount is indeed square and open on top just like a 170 Cont. O-300 type.
John
I will make a few pictures of the crack to show it Western Skyways. Then they should make me a offer for weding the crankcase. What do you think about shipping the crankcase to Western Skyways? Is here any Commercial Pilot how fly between Frankfurt or Stuttgart and USA (Texas) in the forum TIC170A?
The engine mount is for a C145-2. Do not make me more panic then necessary. I am a engeneer for building up testlines for gasoline injectors for diesel engines. But I am a greenhorn in building up a C170 B. Thefore I had allready a lot of trouble with my project. My nerves are dire therefore for bad news about my project.
The A&P/IA in Germany will not build up a historical aitcrafts, they will earn money. And it is very difficult for me, to find a A&P/IA and help. But I think, that I will find a interested A&P/IA in the next year.
Two days ago I flow a A&P/IA with a Rocket from south Germany to my homebase in eastern Germany. He saw the project and I think he will help. (My parents live in south Germany).
Saw your 170 project posted for sale on Barnstormers. If you are still following this forum, just wanted to say sorry to see it go. I was looking forward to hearing of your progress and your first expeiences flying it. I hope it finds a good home and one day takes to the air again!
). In one of the pictures of your 170 the motor mount appears to be for a different engine than the Cont. O-300(C-145); is it possible that your airplane was converted to a different type of engine before you bought it? Your project seems to be at about the same place mine was in November, as you can see a picture in the picture below.
