Opinions on C-170B value

[jamesorr]

I bought my 170 for 53k. Turns out the muffler and exhaust was toast and all the puley's in the tail were shot along with the tail wheel assembly. Would you believe I bought it from and A & I who just annualed the plane. It has a 180AVCOM with a constant speed. I just finished putting a new engine and a 80inch prop on it. Paint and interior are excellent- radio's so -s o. I wouldn't sell this for under 75k. The cost started AFTER I bought the plane

Jim

[Stinson driver]

Suply and Demand- Thats the trick- In South Africa we only have about 7 flying 170s- I am not selling it but someone is always trying to buy it from me-- my Stinson 108-1 that cost me about the same to restore is worth zip- nobodey wants it-- go figre
cheers Doug

[GAHorn]

I bought my 170 for 53k. Turns out the muffler and exhaust was toast and all the puley's in the tail were shot along with the tail wheel assembly. Would you believe I bought it from and A & I who just annualed the plane. It has a 180AVCOM with a constant speed. I just finished putting a new engine and a 80inch prop on it. Paint and interior are excellent- radio's so -s o. I wouldn't sell this for under 75k. The cost started AFTER I bought the plane

Jim

This is only my personal experience....not a comment of AP/IA aircraft owners in general.
My own experience with aircraft that had great logs/records and crummy maintenance were aircraft previously owned by AP/IAs. I think it's like my brother in law's house. He's an electrical engineer. He also owns a home remodeling business. He does primarily high-cost, high-quality repairs-remodeling on expensive homes. His clients/customers love him and he gets virtually ALL his business by referrals. He does no advertising because he has more work than he needs, and no unhappy customers. In other words,...his work is impeccable.
His wife is not one of his happy customers. Her kitchen is 6 years in the remodeling job. The living room has light fixtures hanging from derelict Romex wiring with twist-connectors. Even the children's room has open wiring within easy reach.
But he's a stickler for meeting codes and doing first-rate work for everyone else.
Many AP/IA's are like that. I know a retired TWA mechanic that performed a lifetime of perfect work, and still does only perfect work on his friends airplanes/equipment. But his own projects are notoriously ignored, jury-rigged, and derelict. In his case,....it's obvious. And like my brother in law, even humorous at times.
The problem is when one finds an airplane that the previous owner had the capability of creating fictitious logs because of his AP/IA knowledge.
A good friend of mine bought an airplane from an AP/IA and it was at the first subsequent annual that we discovered the logbooks were largely fiction. They were beautiful. You never saw so much documentation or so many 337's so neatly filled out. All fiction.
Just because an airplane is being sold by an AP/IA owner is no reason not to perform a full inspection prior to purchase. In fact, it may be even more important.

[Metal Master]

[quote="gahorn Just because an airplane is being sold by an AP/IA owner is no reason not to perform a full inspection prior to purchase. In fact, it may be even more important. [/quote]

George I agree with this; but just as stereotypes and generalizations get us into trouble with ethics so does such blanket generalizations offend people. My father was a self-taught journeyman electrician. Born in 1908. When he joined the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW) they gave him back membership rights as he had started working as an electrician before the IBEW existed. My parent’s home was in a constant state of hanging electrical fixtures and open circuit boxes. So I can relate to your previous posting. He knew more about electrical and mechanical things and had a greater intelligence than most men I have ever met. But he did fall short at home.

The 170 A I am repairing. (I would not call it a restoration or rebuild because I allow myself to be expedient) has in my experience the most detailed set of logbooks I have ever seen? As the previous owner only had the aircraft one month he is not responsible in any way for their presentation (although it is possible that I am even wrong in this statement) and as I bought it through e-bay as a salvage project. I have no complaint. The aircraft had obviously had a lack of maintenance and was from what I can glean from the logs and microfiche records previously owned by mechanics and professional pilots. The aircraft as I go through the various systems exhibits what is often discussed in the various topics and threads in this web sight. Pulley bearings being worn out, cables being ready to break from rust and corrosion, cracks in structure etc, etc. I am repairing this stuff as I find it. Had I bought this as a flying aircraft I would suppose that many of theses things would have gone undiscovered in the most diligent form of pre-purchase inspection because a complete disassembly of every component of the aircraft would be to cost prohibitive in the greatest form. And potential buyers are in most cases unwilling to spend the time or expense it takes to do such an inspection. Such is the nature of inspecting flying aircraft. Where in the grass lies the snake that will bite you when the grass is to high to see into any distance.

As a mechanic I often at least know the difference between poisonous and non-poisonous snakes. And so in the maintenance of my own aircraft I have taken at times an expedient route, which is safe because I know it is but I would not recommend to another because it is not acceptable in the main stream considering all issues at hand. Ethically I cannot pass something on to another of this nature.

But as a representative of my own signature certifying that an aircraft conforms to its type certificate in signing off an annual inspection, I am taking responsibility even for those things, which I cannot see, and all of the expedient routes of others that may be hidden in their un-ethical practices.
Consequently some complain about the prices of my annual inspections and how long they take. As a group, mechanics have been accused of holding aircraft hostage because of the issues they discover.

But I do not speak for all or any other mechanics (or those who prefer to be called technicians). I only speak for myself. And I have great respect for anyone who wishes to have a thorough pre-purchase inspection performed. I doubt that it could be accomplished in only what most people seem to think an annual inspection should be comprised of.

A greater price is not a good indication of higher value or proper maintenance. It may be an indicator of expense in maintenance or installed equipment. But a lower purchase price often means the bottom end of the going scale as compared to those aircraft better equipped but not necessarily better maintained. The basic functions of an aircraft are often ignored in this process of determination of value.

Roast me on an open pit for my failure, but let the buyer beware. It is in his or her own best interest. Be prepared to pay the price in any case.

I do sincerely believe that our aircraft are undervalued and this as a result contributes to their being under maintained. I wholly support owner-preformed maintenance by properly supervised and trained people. It brings their awareness up and gives them the ability to survive.

Frankly I am surprised any one would sign off an annual inspection.

And while I am on my soapbox!

Throwing grease at something does not lubricate it.

Jim

[zero.one.victor]

Back in 1997, I looked at about 8 170's for sale- a ragwing, a couple A's, & the rest B's. The first one I looked at was the ragwing, fairly straight (but not a show-stopper) & very affordably priced. I passed because I decided to spend more money & get a shiny one. The next 7 were sometimes shinier/sometimes not,all were pricier, and none were any better of an airplane. I ended up lowballing the owner of the ragwing, who let it go for $500 more than my offer. I actually bought it to tide me over til I found a good B model.... well, 8 years & 1300-odd hours later I'm still in the ragwing.
I suppose the moral of this story is that perfect is expensive, but good enough is cheaper and, well, good enough! My ragwing isn't the prettiest one out there, but it's solid dependable & a good flier-- and that's what counts.

Eric