Yes. This is what I mean by talk to them about what and how you want to do it. Be on the same page with your inspector. Don't do more or less that he expects.
For example assuming you bought a basket case but complete airframe. You would clean all the airframe parts using methods your inspector approves of then have him inspect the clean metal airframe. When he is done and satisfied there is no repairs needed then and only then would you paint all the parts. Because there is a lot of airframe and these parts rust quickly you might do this in smaller steps. You and he would agree what your going to do next and how it's going to be done and when he needs to inspect your work.
BTW readers this applies whether your working on a J3 or a Cessna 170. I'm sure some of the A&Ps could chime in here. The biggest thing to a successful relationship whether it be with your A&P buddy or your wife is communication.
j 3 cub
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
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Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10327
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
As an IA you find that you have friends that you never knew you had. 
If I don’t know someone on a personal level it would take a lot of convincing to make me get interested in a project like you are talking about. However I am not using my IA to feed my family either. As with what Bruce is saying the work I do for people I don’t do it for the money it is a barter system for me.
If I don’t know someone on a personal level it would take a lot of convincing to make me get interested in a project like you are talking about. However I am not using my IA to feed my family either. As with what Bruce is saying the work I do for people I don’t do it for the money it is a barter system for me.
What do those of you that are A&Ps / IAs but not full time employed as such do re: liability?
My good friend has both licenses but only to mainain his own airplanes. He doesn't want to put his name in anyone else's logs ... not that he doesn't trust his buddies, but if the plane is ever sold ... ?
Any thoughts on that?
I would love to pay or barter with him for work - even though I have another guy that signs stuff off, he is a good friend and I would rather let him have the income.
Thomas
My good friend has both licenses but only to mainain his own airplanes. He doesn't want to put his name in anyone else's logs ... not that he doesn't trust his buddies, but if the plane is ever sold ... ?
Any thoughts on that?
I would love to pay or barter with him for work - even though I have another guy that signs stuff off, he is a good friend and I would rather let him have the income.
Thomas
Thomas Short
1948 C170 N3949V
RV-8 wings in progress
Indianapolis (KUMP)
1948 C170 N3949V
RV-8 wings in progress
Indianapolis (KUMP)
Bill Hart wrote:...As an IA... I don’t do it for the money it is a barter system for me....
Well, ALLRiiigghhttteee theennn! I'd been worrried about the age of your ride! Now I feel a lot better about that junky old pickup you've apparently ended up with, ...if you just turned a screw or two for it.........
(wanna make a quick $100?) '53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
43.3 Persons authorized to perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alterations.
(a) Except as provided in this section and §43.17, no person may maintain, rebuild, alter, or perform preventive maintenance on an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part to which this part applies. Those items, the performance of which is a major alteration, a major repair, or preventive maintenance, are listed in appendix A.
(b) The holder of a mechanic certificate may perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations as provided in Part 65 of this chapter.
(c) The holder of a repairman certificate may perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations as provided in part 65 of this chapter.
(d) A person working under the supervision of a holder of a mechanic or repairman certificate may perform the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations that his supervisor is authorized to perform, if the supervisor personally observes the work being done to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly and if the supervisor is readily available, in person, for consultation. However, this paragraph does not authorize the performance of any inspection required by Part 91 or Part 125 of this chapter or any inspection performed after a major repair or alteration.
g) Except for holders of a sport pilot certificate, the holder of a pilot certificate issued under part 61 may perform preventive maintenance on any aircraft owned or operated by that pilot which is not used under part 121, 129, or 135 of this chapter. The holder of a sport pilot certificate may perform preventive maintenance on an aircraft owned or operated by that pilot and issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category.
§ 43.7 Persons authorized to approve aircraft, airframes, aircraft engines, propellers, appliances, or component parts for return to service after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
(a) Except as provided in this section and §43.17, no person, other than the Administrator, may approve an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part for return to service after it has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
(b) The holder of a mechanic certificate or an inspection authorization may approve an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part for return to service as provided in Part 65 of this chapter.
To comply with 43.3d supervision of a non licensed mechanic requires about 15% of the project
time. On a 1000 hour project @ $60.00 an hour inspection adds $9000.00 to the price of the project.
For a number of small projects the project becomes uneconomical when the price of inspection is added in.
This is the reason that many working on projects are looking for a sign off.
My answer for those seeking a sign off is to refer them to 43.17a The Administrator can approve
your project for return to service and they are paid by the government
(a) Except as provided in this section and §43.17, no person may maintain, rebuild, alter, or perform preventive maintenance on an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part to which this part applies. Those items, the performance of which is a major alteration, a major repair, or preventive maintenance, are listed in appendix A.
(b) The holder of a mechanic certificate may perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations as provided in Part 65 of this chapter.
(c) The holder of a repairman certificate may perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations as provided in part 65 of this chapter.
(d) A person working under the supervision of a holder of a mechanic or repairman certificate may perform the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations that his supervisor is authorized to perform, if the supervisor personally observes the work being done to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly and if the supervisor is readily available, in person, for consultation. However, this paragraph does not authorize the performance of any inspection required by Part 91 or Part 125 of this chapter or any inspection performed after a major repair or alteration.
g) Except for holders of a sport pilot certificate, the holder of a pilot certificate issued under part 61 may perform preventive maintenance on any aircraft owned or operated by that pilot which is not used under part 121, 129, or 135 of this chapter. The holder of a sport pilot certificate may perform preventive maintenance on an aircraft owned or operated by that pilot and issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category.
§ 43.7 Persons authorized to approve aircraft, airframes, aircraft engines, propellers, appliances, or component parts for return to service after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
(a) Except as provided in this section and §43.17, no person, other than the Administrator, may approve an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part for return to service after it has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
(b) The holder of a mechanic certificate or an inspection authorization may approve an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part for return to service as provided in Part 65 of this chapter.
To comply with 43.3d supervision of a non licensed mechanic requires about 15% of the project
time. On a 1000 hour project @ $60.00 an hour inspection adds $9000.00 to the price of the project.
For a number of small projects the project becomes uneconomical when the price of inspection is added in.
This is the reason that many working on projects are looking for a sign off.
My answer for those seeking a sign off is to refer them to 43.17a The Administrator can approve
your project for return to service and they are paid by the government
Mike
N 9545A
N 9545A
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Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10327
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
A home built is different. It is built and licensed as an experimental aircraftt. After it's built it is inspected by "the administrator" as to whether it is airworthy or not or what restrictions of flight are placed on the craft will it's airworthiness is being evaluated.
In the end it gets an experimental airworthiness certificate which may or may not have restrictions or it may not get a permanent airworthiness certificate.
Assuming it gets a certificate after proving you built 51% of it you can apply for a repairman's certificate good for that air frame only.
This is of course an over simplification of the process.
The ability to build your own aircraft without being licensed (having and A&P) is one thing that makes experimental aircraft so intriguing to many people.
You might want to consider building and experimental L-4 rather than a real one. There are semi-kits available to do this and to be honest it wouldn't be any harder that doing and extensive rebuild of an original and might even be a bit cheaper.
In the end it gets an experimental airworthiness certificate which may or may not have restrictions or it may not get a permanent airworthiness certificate.
Assuming it gets a certificate after proving you built 51% of it you can apply for a repairman's certificate good for that air frame only.
This is of course an over simplification of the process.
The ability to build your own aircraft without being licensed (having and A&P) is one thing that makes experimental aircraft so intriguing to many people.
You might want to consider building and experimental L-4 rather than a real one. There are semi-kits available to do this and to be honest it wouldn't be any harder that doing and extensive rebuild of an original and might even be a bit cheaper.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
All right George! You can just leave my truck outa this. I supose you own a Ford?gahorn wrote:Bill Hart wrote:...As an IA... I don’t do it for the money it is a barter system for me....
Well, ALLRiiigghhttteee theennn! I'd been worrried about the age of your ride! Now I feel a lot better about that junky old pickup you've apparently ended up with, ...if you just turned a screw or two for it.........
Actually, I just wanna talk you outta that Cheby!Bill Hart wrote:All right George! You can just leave my truck outa this. I supose you own a Ford?gahorn wrote:Bill Hart wrote:...As an IA... I don’t do it for the money it is a barter system for me....
Well, ALLRiiigghhttteee theennn! I'd been worrried about the age of your ride! Now I feel a lot better about that junky old pickup you've apparently ended up with, ...if you just turned a screw or two for it.........
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Dave,
If what you're looking for is a flyable L4 in good condition, and you're wondering if it would be cheaper to rebuild a basket case than pay the cost of a turnkey airplane, then the usual sage advice, which I firmly believe, is to find the best L4 you can and pay what the seller wants for it. It'll cost you less, in the long run, than restoring one. (Of course this works for any make and model, not just L4s.)
On the other hand, many of us just want a project, and something ready-to-fly just wouldn't be interesting. It all depends on what you really want.
Best Regards,
John
If what you're looking for is a flyable L4 in good condition, and you're wondering if it would be cheaper to rebuild a basket case than pay the cost of a turnkey airplane, then the usual sage advice, which I firmly believe, is to find the best L4 you can and pay what the seller wants for it. It'll cost you less, in the long run, than restoring one. (Of course this works for any make and model, not just L4s.)
On the other hand, many of us just want a project, and something ready-to-fly just wouldn't be interesting. It all depends on what you really want.
Best Regards,
John
John Renwick
Minneapolis, MN
Former owner, '55 C-170B, N4401B
'42 J-3 Cub, N62088
'50 Swift GC-1B, N2431B, Oshkosh 2009 Outstanding Swift Award, 2016 Best Continuously Maintained Swift
Minneapolis, MN
Former owner, '55 C-170B, N4401B
'42 J-3 Cub, N62088
'50 Swift GC-1B, N2431B, Oshkosh 2009 Outstanding Swift Award, 2016 Best Continuously Maintained Swift
-
Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10327
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
From a strictly legal stand point you can't do that Dave. You must first understand the experimental category. The following is from the FAA web site:
A special airworthiness certificate in the experimental category is issued to operate an aircraft that does not have a type certificate or does not conform to its type certificate and is in a condition for safe operation. Additionally, this certificate is issued to operate a primary category kit-built aircraft that was assembled without the supervision and quality control of the production certificate holder.
Special airworthiness certificates may be issued in the experimental category for the following purposes:
Research and development: to conduct aircraft operations as a matter of research or to determine if an idea warrants further development. Typical uses for this certificate include new equipment installations, operating techniques, or new uses for aircraft.
Showing compliance with regulations: to show compliance to the airworthiness regulations when an applicant has revised the type certificate design data or has applied for a supplemental type certificate or field approval.
Crew training: for training the applicant’s flight crews in experimental aircraft for subsequent operation of aircraft being flight tested in type certificate programs or for production flight testing.
Exhibition: to exhibit an aircraft’s flight capabilities, performance, or unusual characteristics for air shows, motion pictures, television, and similar productions, and for the maintenance of exhibition flight proficiency.
Air racing: to operate an aircraft in air races, practice for air races, and to fly to and from racing events.
Market surveys: to conduct market surveys, sales demonstrations, and customer crew training for U.S. manufacturers of aircraft or engines.
Operating amateur-built, kit-built, or light-sport aircraft
Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS)
We generally think of experimental aircraft as RVs, Lancairs and the like. These aircraft are licensed experimental under the amateur-built, kit-built category. The other areas of experimental aircraft have restrictive limitations placed on the aircraft and for the most part if you didn't have to have your aircraft licensed in one of these areas you wouldn't.
There are exceptions but for the most part you must prove that you built 51% of the airplane for it to be licensed in the amateur-built, kit-built category. One way you prove this is to build a kit the FAA already recognizes as only having 49% or less of the work done. Otherwise it's up to you to prove it and "the administrator" to agree.
If you could you really wouldn't want to take a real L-4 and build it into an experimental aircraft. I'm not sure if you've priced an L-4 or a J3 for that matter but many of them are selling for more than your 170 would sell for. An experimental version would only bring half the value. Would you really want to turn a potential $50,000 aircraft into a $25,000 aircraft. And the process would most likely NOT be reversible either.
Again this explanation is a very simplified explanation of the FARs and is very general in its explanation. I have seen exceptions that I'm still scratching my head over.
A special airworthiness certificate in the experimental category is issued to operate an aircraft that does not have a type certificate or does not conform to its type certificate and is in a condition for safe operation. Additionally, this certificate is issued to operate a primary category kit-built aircraft that was assembled without the supervision and quality control of the production certificate holder.
Special airworthiness certificates may be issued in the experimental category for the following purposes:
Research and development: to conduct aircraft operations as a matter of research or to determine if an idea warrants further development. Typical uses for this certificate include new equipment installations, operating techniques, or new uses for aircraft.
Showing compliance with regulations: to show compliance to the airworthiness regulations when an applicant has revised the type certificate design data or has applied for a supplemental type certificate or field approval.
Crew training: for training the applicant’s flight crews in experimental aircraft for subsequent operation of aircraft being flight tested in type certificate programs or for production flight testing.
Exhibition: to exhibit an aircraft’s flight capabilities, performance, or unusual characteristics for air shows, motion pictures, television, and similar productions, and for the maintenance of exhibition flight proficiency.
Air racing: to operate an aircraft in air races, practice for air races, and to fly to and from racing events.
Market surveys: to conduct market surveys, sales demonstrations, and customer crew training for U.S. manufacturers of aircraft or engines.
Operating amateur-built, kit-built, or light-sport aircraft
Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS)
We generally think of experimental aircraft as RVs, Lancairs and the like. These aircraft are licensed experimental under the amateur-built, kit-built category. The other areas of experimental aircraft have restrictive limitations placed on the aircraft and for the most part if you didn't have to have your aircraft licensed in one of these areas you wouldn't.
There are exceptions but for the most part you must prove that you built 51% of the airplane for it to be licensed in the amateur-built, kit-built category. One way you prove this is to build a kit the FAA already recognizes as only having 49% or less of the work done. Otherwise it's up to you to prove it and "the administrator" to agree.
If you could you really wouldn't want to take a real L-4 and build it into an experimental aircraft. I'm not sure if you've priced an L-4 or a J3 for that matter but many of them are selling for more than your 170 would sell for. An experimental version would only bring half the value. Would you really want to turn a potential $50,000 aircraft into a $25,000 aircraft. And the process would most likely NOT be reversible either.
Again this explanation is a very simplified explanation of the FARs and is very general in its explanation. I have seen exceptions that I'm still scratching my head over.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
iowa,
I agree with jrenwick. If you can afford it...buy it already flying. I bought my 172 needing "a little" work. You end up working on it constantly and hardly ever flying it. I have had a few guys look at mine because it is for sale and their response is, " I found one cheaper that needs a little work." I just laugh and try to tell them that is what I did and won't do it again as far as an airplane is concerned. Mostly due to the IA stipulation.
Since you restore jeeps you know what I am saying. It starts out as a little repair then you find out "where do I stop" and end up doing a total rebuild. I have done it to cars also.
By the way. I am building a Murphy Rebel for the reasons listed above....to do my own work on it when I need to instead of having to get an appointment and getting it fixed "when they have time"!
Keith from Minnesota
I agree with jrenwick. If you can afford it...buy it already flying. I bought my 172 needing "a little" work. You end up working on it constantly and hardly ever flying it. I have had a few guys look at mine because it is for sale and their response is, " I found one cheaper that needs a little work." I just laugh and try to tell them that is what I did and won't do it again as far as an airplane is concerned. Mostly due to the IA stipulation.
Since you restore jeeps you know what I am saying. It starts out as a little repair then you find out "where do I stop" and end up doing a total rebuild. I have done it to cars also.
By the way. I am building a Murphy Rebel for the reasons listed above....to do my own work on it when I need to instead of having to get an appointment and getting it fixed "when they have time"!
Keith from Minnesota
i appreciate your comments.
since i have my 170, i don't have to worry about a plane to fly.
i enjoy restoring things from the 'ground up'
it seems incredible that so many rules and regulations
apply to such a simple aircraft as a j3 or L-4
and make it virtually impossible
to take on as a project.
believe me, i know what it costs to restore s.t.
but i what s.t. to sit in my garage to tink on
for several years (it keeps me sane!)
and maybe fly in the distant future
iowa
since i have my 170, i don't have to worry about a plane to fly.
i enjoy restoring things from the 'ground up'
it seems incredible that so many rules and regulations
apply to such a simple aircraft as a j3 or L-4
and make it virtually impossible
to take on as a project.
believe me, i know what it costs to restore s.t.
but i what s.t. to sit in my garage to tink on
for several years (it keeps me sane!)
and maybe fly in the distant future
iowa
1951 170A 1468D SN 20051
1942 L-4B 2764C USAAC 43-572 (9433)
AME #17747