Sparky Imeson's Accident

[cessna170bdriver]

...The guy who gave me my check ride told me, after I passed my check ride, “This is a license to learn, be safe and have fun.” I also agree with MontanaBird in regards to a chain of events, or several different factors, that cause an accident. If you can break one link in that chain the accident will not occur.

With that in mind I do not think we stop learning with 3000, 5000 or even 10,000 hours...

My Dad first soloed in August 1955 in an Aeronca Champ, and has been continuously active in aviation for the nearly 52 years since. He is retired from 27 years as a pilot for Piedmont Airlines flying everything from DC-3's to B767's, and at 74 years old still flies his own airplanes (C-310J and YAK-52TW) to this day. I'm sure his total time is well into 5 figures. One of my favorite quotes from him is that "Any day you fly and don't learn something, you've wasted your time." Amen.

Miles

[GAHorn]

MontanaBird, Thank you for having an open mind unlike some of the other people on this forum.

I have stewed over this thread since I first read it. I first heard of the accident on the Backcountry site. I was amazed; I did not read any negative things on that site. They all talked about learning from it, were the two pilots ok, what type of training, and what survival gear was needed in that type of flying. I look on the 170 site and the second post regarding this accident was so negative and disrespectful, IT *ticked* ME OFF.

Yes, you know who I am talking about. Who do you think you are, are you the best pilot out there, have you never made a mistake in an airplane. I only have 500 hours and I know I have made a lot of mistakes in an airplane. I can only hope that I learn from them or I catch the mistake before I get hurt or crash the plane. The guy who gave me my check ride told me, after I passed my check ride, “This is a license to learn, be safe and have fun.” I also agree with MontanaBird in regards to a chain of events, or several different factors, that cause an accident. If you can break one link in that chain the accident will not occur.

With that in mind I do not think we stop learning with 3000, 5000 or even 10,000 hours. Well maybe some stop learning!!!! People with your attitude are very irritating. I understand your type of personality; I deal with people like you at work all the time. You can not help it; it’s just the way you are. I hope I was not too hard on you.

I am just glad both pilots made it out of that accident alive. I also hope we can all learn from it. But lets not bad mouth either pilot on a situation that we were not involved in. None of us were in the airplane.


At the very respectful request of a member I have edited my post so there are no names mentioned as who I am talking about.

I can take it. It's my post that irritated you. I understand and sympathize with your desire to not pre-judge other pilots. If you knew me very well you'd know I feel that way too and have so stated very publicly and very often.

Here's the problem I have with this story: A pilot holds himself out to be a "professional" who can teach one how to fly in mountains safely. He makes it his entire thesis of his aviation existence. He takes people's money for this self-proclaimed expertise. (He's not doing it as a favor or as a volunteer... He's MAKING MONEY off this deal!)
He takes a client up a canyon.... he violates his own pre-flight briefing (something he doubtelss has scolded many not to do) and continues on a last-minute decision to exceed the briefed scenario (continue beyone 500 AGL to 300 AGL) and then at a critical point in the flight when he should be earning his money and/or performing his "profession".... he is "taking notes" (i.e. he's not paying attention to his client's activities) while the client gets into trouble. In other words: He seems to have an excuse for his negligence during the flight, and actually attempts to justify his negligence by declaring he had other important duties (presumeably the notes). NOw what in the world could be more important after making an ad hoc decision to abandon a briefed lesson-plan than to make CERTAIN that nothing happens to get that client into trouble?
But no, Mr. Expert is busy "taking notes" and misses the vital clues that they are sinking (WHAT? DOWNDRAFTS? IN MOUNTAINS? ----- Doesn't Sparky read his own books? He's written thousands of words on such! Made money off of flatlanders proclaiming such stuff. So how does he justify making such an ignorant claim now that he's allowed a client to get hurt on HIS WATCH?)

I don't apologize for my words. You don't see any of MY CLIENTS gettting hurt on MY WATCH and then see ME BLAME THE CLIENT for the episode that resulted due to my negligence.
He's got quite some nerve joking that his next book will be about surviving a mountain crash. He's lucky to be around after he violated so many of his own preachings. (Left his Personal ELT at home. Left the accident site. etc etc. What does he think he's got to contribute in another book? Ya gotta wonder!)
Do I sound disgusted with his behavior and his lack of courage to take responsibility for the crash? Good. Because that's exactly the way I see it.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

George it seems that you have seen or heard other information than has been discussed here about details of the accident. Perhaps there was as link I missed. In any case this might be the reason for your opinion.

I personally don't care that Sparky had a crash other than I don't wish a crash on anybody. I've never ready his book and most likely never will. I'm not a book reader.

The accident just goes to show once again that now matter how much experience one has, no one is perfect.

I've had lots of training and experience in what I do (helicopter pilot). Yet at least on a weekly bases I get caught just a little short somewhere on a flight. Most times there is simply not a pen in the cockpit.

As a leader and teacher most of us set the highest standards. As humans it is then a difficult task to meet those standards day in and day out. We humans slip a little here and there. It is our nature.

It is always difficult when a leader fails to meet the standard, doesn't matter what profession it is. It happens all the time. It doesn't make the leaders advice any less important. It just proves the leader was human.

[N171TD]

And the pilot or person in charge is responsible to not allow the chain to continue to the conclusion of a wreck !!!!!!!!!! I must agree with George that this self proclaimed pro was obviously not the pro he claims to be. This is pilot error unless the engine or aircraft had a problem which was not ever stated as a issue by the pilot or pax.

[N171TD]

Do you people that pay for the outrageously expensive insursance think it fair to pay for others mistakes. I get mad every time I think that my premiums increase due to the stupid actions of other drivers. One of the big problems in this country is that everyone is always looking for an excuss to blame a personal stupid action on someone or something other than themselves.

[edbooth]

Wow from the liberals to the conservatives, we have heard it all here ....the good...the bad....and the ugly. My only comment is that no matter how experienced or inexperienced you are, probably one of these days if you fly enough something is going to reach out and try and bite you. You just got to recognize it and react in time to minimize the mess you might make. Unfortunately these guys did not recognize they had a problem in time to prevent a mess. They are just lucky it was a rescue rather than a body recovery. Thats all I have to say about that.

[N1277D]

Given the choice of a professional CFI or a local pilot explaining how to get into a mountain strip, my choice has always been the local guys that go there on a regular basis. Some professional CFIs are not current on local conditions - my two cents.

[GAHorn]

In a nutshell, ... pif-sonic, I am especially wary of criticizing pilots who are no longer around to defend themselves when a fatal accident occurs. I truly regret when someone attacks a dead pilot.
In this case, I guess what bothered me was the professional who malpracticed his trade and then failed to place the blame sqarely where it belongs....himself. Instead we see a downward spriral into failure to accept the error, to honorably take the blame, and apologize to the client who rightfully expected the professional to do what he'd always preached.

Have I ever screwed up and nearly busted my tail? Oh yeah. Plenty of times. And yes, I've been very lucky to get away with it, every time. But I admit my errors (heck..anyone who knows me knows I won't SHUT UP about them!) and I hope to learn from them, and that's why I share them... I hope others will learn from my mistakes too.
I consider that to be the better behavior...as opposed to the blame game.

Taking notes. "Unpredicted downdrafts" and "windshear that turned into tailwind".... Oh, my! What's a mountain expert to do? Put down his notepad? Silly client. Thought Sparky was along for his expertise.

(Bruce, the AOPA link I provided req'd a membership username/password. Perhaps not everyone in this discussion has such access, but that is the plain truth of this accident. Sparky was at a mountain-flying seminar/get-together and was going to demonstrate "how it's done" to the attendees. They ran up a canyon having briefed to allow rising terrain to get no higher than 500' to the airplane...then disregarded that briefing and "deliberately" continued to 300' , then Sparky claims he was busy "taking notes for a debriefing" while the client made the prescribed turn-around. And in Sparky's words, the client mishandled the turn around and turned INTO the rising terrain (but Sparky was still busy making notes) and then they encountered an "unpredicted and unexpected mountain downdraft" which then turned into "windshear" which then turned into unexpected "tailwind" (good thing he was taking notes or we might not understand why such an expert got surprised, overwhelmed, and was unable to respond other than to scream at his client "nose down! nose down"...which, also according to Sparky was the saving grace he personally contributed because then "at least" they struck the trees moving "forward instead of straight down!" Whew! Great save, Sparky! Good thing you were there to scream at the client, huh?

Sparky's account even included an excuse for his wandering off from the site (which delayed his rescue) by blaming the lack of an onboard ELT on the client, and he attributed his own failure to carry the personal elt he always preached... on his wife! ("She had it back at home!") Jeesh!

The only thing less professional about getting a client into a non-recoverable situation....was attempting to lay the blame everywhere but where it belongs. One more opportunity to teach was missed.... how to learn from one's mistakes. IMHO

[voorheesh]

I investigate aircraft accidents for a living (FAA). The first thing most investigators say to a surviving pilot or passenger is how glad we are that they are alive. Why? because of the number of times that is not the case. Rule #1 in accident investigation: Do not to jump to conclusions. Sometimes the facts are obvious, but you really do not know what you are talking about until all the facts are in. In my business, only NTSB can determine probable cause. FAA assists because we are geographically closer to the site and have more inspectors. We address 9 areas of FAA responsibility such as airworthiness, medical, pilot competence, etc and then take action such as safety recommendations (if warranted) or sometimes action regarding airmen/operators (again if warranted). The process is time consuming and I have learned the hard way to let it run its course.
So how about Sparky? Well I did not read the AOPA writeup but I can tell you his comments as quoted in the Helena newspaper reveal he is an honest aviator and his account would be extremely valuable to an accident investigator. Even though he summed it up, we would still look at the airworthiness of his A/C, his qualifications/currency, weather info, what he was doing in the canyon, and anything else of importance. Incidentally, even the FAA and NTSB realize that pilots do fly into canyons for legitimate reasons and sometimes because they have to. Guys like Sparky are valuable because they provide training to these folks and hopefully increase safety. If you fly in canyons (no matter who or how good you are) you are in an enviornment where the chances for an accident are way higher than in normal operations. Bottom line is that we all screw up on occasion and if it happens in a canyon we are more likely to experience an accident even from a minor mistake. I am glad they made it and hope both get back to flying soon and learn from their mistakes.

[1SeventyZ]

I think another factor to note is the line between instructor and PIC in a situation like this. When you have 2 certificated pilots, one the instructor and one the pilot receiving instruction, who is the PIC? The "student" can log the time as PIC since they are qualified to fly the aircraft, but we've all been in the cockpit with an alpha pilot/instructor. Who's the boss?

As pilot gets older, more hours, more experience, etc it might become easier to assert yourself, but as a low time pilot it can be tough to question the old silverback's suggestions, which usually are delivered as polite commands.

I've never flown with Sparky, I'm only saying this "who's the PIC" issue has bitten a lot of pilots who fly with more experienced pilots.

[voorheesh]

Who is PIC? That is a very good question that many pilots take for granted. I believe that when you go flying with a fellow pilot you need to have a clear understanding before you go and then stick with it. You have to know who is in charge; who has the controls; and the method by which you exchange controls if it becomes necessary. I had an experience years ago when I was getting my partner recurrent tailwheel (I am a CFI). I became too relaxed because we were friends and enjoying the flight and guess what? We ground looped (lucky for us no damage just bruised egos). He was at the controls but I was at fault because I was CFI and PIC. I learned alot from that experience ie. talk about it before you go fly and pay attention.

[voorheesh]

I thought a bit more on tripslip38's question about when you "assert yourself" when flying. If you are uncomfortable with any aspect of a flight you should not hesitate to mention it to your flying partner whether that person be PIC, a CFI, a passenger, a fellow pilot, or an examiner/FAA Inspector. Be a little careful how and when you do it. As I mentioned earlier, I investigate aircraft accidents and I believe that many of the ones I have worked developed as a series of factors that culminated with a loss of control. During these series there may have been opportunities to avoid the problem that went by the wayside because no one spoke up when there was still time. Low level aerobatics, VFR flight in bad wx, and low flying are killers. If you find yourself in such a situation with another pilot, speak up, express your discomfort and ask to be let off at the nearest airport. The earlier you communicate, the better. If you run into an older CFI or pilot who does not like to hear this kind of input, you might be better off finding someone else to fly with.

[GAHorn]

... If you run into an older CFI or pilot who does not like to hear this kind of input, you might be better off finding someone else to fly with.

What about younger ones? (grin)
At arms length, I must say that my earlier comments were candids... expressions of astonishment that a professional instructor of this stature would allow any lesson or demonstration deteriorate so badly and subsequently fail to take responsibility for the outcome.
Voorhees and tripslip38 have brought an aspect that I frankly had not considered in this discussion. When I fly as a CFI with a client, (who may be a student or an ATP or another CFI....or anywhere in-between) it is always discussed prior to launch WHO is ultimately responsible for the safety of flight. In the case of a qualified PIC undergoing a flight review in his owned airplane, for example, if I am the CFI administering the review....I am not the PIC, but I still bear responsibility for the safe outcome of the lesson. It is understood between us that, if at any time I observe an unsafe situaton, that I have authority/prior-permission to act to prevent danger and/or accident. (Of course, the drawback is that it also confers responsibility to me of any damage that may occur as the result of my failure to act.)
I have flown with owners in a non-instructive relationship as well, for example, when travelling to get a hamburger with an acquaintance, in which I am not acting as either CFI or pilot monitoring. I am acting as a passenger. Am I responsible if the PIC takes dangerous chances or unsafely operates the airplane? If I am sitting up front...maybe.
Accident investigations have often held the non-flying (monitoring) pilot responsible for failure to prevent an accident if that monitoring pilot were qualified and current in type. (One such report which caught me by surprise was a few years ago when a non-flying/non-instructing pilot was held mutually responsible for a gear-up landing ... even though he was not flying, and the PIC was the aircraft owner. The report held him responsible because he "knew or should have known" the gear was not down and failed to act.
If that is the standard by which pilots are to be held...then it must be a higher standard that pilots who are also instructors must hold. And that was an important element in my earlier remarks.
From the point of my profession, I agree with Voorhees analysis. From the point of sheer astonishment and disappointment in his (Sparky's) failure to take responsibility.... and from the standpoint of a mere reader, were my comments made. I have no animosity toward Sparky at all. I am fortunate that I have not (many times) ended up in the same boat. I am learning from this story. (And I'll assume responsibility if I'm ever in that boat and let a client tear up his plane.)

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

When I fly as a CFI with a client, (who may be a student or an ATP or another CFI....or anywhere in-between) it is always discussed prior to launch WHO is ultimately responsible for the safety of flight. In the case of a qualified PIC undergoing a flight review in his owned airplane, for example, if I am the CFI administering the review....I am not the PIC, but I still bear responsibility for the safe outcome of the lesson. It is understood between us that, if at any time I observe an unsafe situaton, that I have authority/prior-permission to act to prevent danger and/or accident. (Of course, the drawback is that it also confers responsibility to me of any damage that may occur as the result of my failure to act.)

George I submit that under the circumstances and briefing you describe above YOU are the PIC. You are bearing the ultimate responsibility for the outcome of the flight. That is what you wrote as I read it. In your scenario the other person regardless of their rating is the PIC for the purpose of administration of the flight.

As a CFI and one who generally has more experience than those I fly with if something with any flight went wrong and I had the opportunity to prevent it, I'd feel I bear at least some responsibility for the outcome.

If I'm instructing I'd bear all the responsibility as you state.

[GAHorn]

George I submit that under the circumstances and briefing you describe above YOU are the PIC. You are bearing the ultimate responsibility for the outcome of the flight. That is what you wrote as I read it. In your scenario the other person regardless of their rating is the PIC for the purpose of administration of the flight.

As a CFI and one who generally has more experience than those I fly with if something with any flight went wrong and I had the opportunity to prevent it, I'd feel I bear at least some responsibility for the outcome.

If I'm instructing I'd bear all the responsibility as you state.

I completely agree with your assessment, Bruce... except that in the briefing, I want to impress upon the client that HE/SHE should take responsibility as PIC. I don't want them to automatically defer to me. (Otherwise I find they will leave critical decisions to me, and that makes it difficult to asses leadership/judgement/decision-making skills.) For that reason I remind them that THEY are PIC (despite our co-responsibilities.)